Devils advocate time....

Does a woman or a man need to keep up with the latest techniques of gender surgeries to be 'real'?

For instance: Suppose in the future they are able to grow a vagina in a lab and it is available to those who can afford it or are in countries that will cover it with national health care. Are those transwomen with a sugically created vagina less women than those women with lab grown vaginas?

Then suppose 10 more years in the future they find a way to turn a testicle into an overy. Do those women who now have their testicles turned into overies become more woman than those with only the lab created vagina or the surgicaly crafted one?

Then take it anouther step further in anouther 10-20 years. Now transwomen can get an srs procedure that is a fully functional female reproductive system. Are those women who can get this surgery now the definition of a real trans woman?

At which point do we draw the line?

Cause eventually there will be lab grown organs and genetic manipulation capable of changing a human at the genetic level.

My penis is a 'male' organ. Yep granted.
However it is also a female organ for two reasons.
First, it is on my body. I am a woman and every part of me is female. If I am lucky enough to get the resourses to get SRS that penis will be the donor material to become my vagina.
Second, I have been on estrogen and have been castrated. My penis does not react exactly like a standard 'males' does. It is softer in both meanings of the term and there is a texture to my skin that is definatly female. Even the smell that my penis gives off is no longer male. It is decidedly female. I have been with enough men and women to know the differance in the pheremones between the sexs.

My body is genderf***ed. Yep definatly so. This is a stressful situation but I seem to suck it up well enough.
However my body is more female than male in spite of the penis. (It looks rather out of place when I actually take the time to look at myself in a full length mirror.)

Female and male become very muddied once we introduce the TS birth defect and cross sex hormone therapy into the equation.

Quote from: cynthialee on October 15, 2011, 05:22:22 PM
Devils advocate time....

Does a woman or a man need to keep up with the latest techniques of gender surgeries to be 'real'?

For instance: Suppose in the future they are able to grow a vagina in a lab and it is available to those who can afford it or are in countries that will cover it with national health care. Are those transwomen with a sugically created vagina less women than those women with lab grown vaginas?

Then suppose 10 more years in the future they find a way to turn a testicle into an overy. Do those women who now have their testicles turned into overies become more woman than those with only the lab created vagina or the surgicaly crafted one?

Then take it anouther step further in anouther 10-20 years. Now transwomen can get an srs procedure that is a fully functional female reproductive system. Are those women who can get this surgery now the definition of a real trans woman?

At which point do we draw the line?

Cause eventually there will be lab grown organs and genetic manipulation capable of changing a human at the genetic level.

My penis is a 'male' organ. Yep granted.
However it is also a female organ for two reasons.
First, it is on my body. I am a woman and every part of me is female. If I am lucky enough to get the resourses to get SRS that penis will be the donor material to become my vagina.
Second, I have been on estrogen and have been castrated. My penis does not react exactly like a standard 'males' does. It is softer in both meanings of the term and there is a texture to my skin that is definatly female. Even the smell that my penis gives off is no longer male. It is decidedly female. I have been with enough men and women to know the differance in the pheremones between the sexs.

My body is genderf***ed. Yep definatly so. This is a stressful situation but I seem to suck it up well enough.
However my body is more female than male in spite of the penis. (It looks rather out of place when I actually take the time to look at myself in a full length mirror.)

Female and male become very muddied once we introduce the TS birth defect and cross sex hormone therapy into the equation.

i'm thinking we might as well institute a gender point system that coordinates with how real of a man or woman you are. maybe then, people will learn how totally unfair it is.

I think this whole issue has been needlessly complicated.

A person can be trans before surgery or even before hormones in the same way a person can be gay and a virgin. It is about who you are inside, who you feel you truly are.

Some people may choose to correct their body to better fit that feeling. Some may choose not to. Some may be unable to, either medically or financially. They are all worthy of respect.

Quote from: Lily on October 15, 2011, 05:40:01 PM
I think this whole issue has been needlessly complicated.

A person can be trans before surgery or even before hormones in the same way a person can be gay and a virgin. It is about who you are inside, who you feel you truly are.

Some people may choose to correct their body to better fit that feeling. Some may choose not to. Some may be unable to, either medically or financially. They are all worthy of respect.

Absolutely, I'm a great believer in respect and equality.

Since this thread is ongoing, I've decided to continue to participate to it's conclusion.

By calling SRS simply an option has the effect of the quote from an article below, which summarizes the concern of some in the TS community about Non-op .

Quote from: ts-si.org Ms. Sharon Gaughan article: What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op NotionAsserting that SRS is an option for a person born transsexual, even when all other factors are favorable, promotes pseudoscientific approaches to public policy. Denying the underlying medical reality of transsexuals has the consequent effect of characterizing SRS as elective surgery that is minimally cosmetic and not reconstructive.

This unscientific denial stymies initiatives to obtain research attention for transsexuals, improve medical practices, secure legal protection, and provide a variety of needed social services.

Let transsexuals be transsexuals.

Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition.

Quote from: mimpi on October 15, 2011, 06:46:46 PM
Absolutely, I'm a great believer in respect and equality.

What do you mean by equality? Being transsexual is a medical condition, not an identity. Or are you disagreeing with that? Are you denying the medical reality of transsexuals? Is anyone here stating that SRS is merely elective and not medically necessary?

Being TS is not a lifestyle. It is a debilitating condition.

What do I mean by equality?

That we are all human beings and our rights are equal.

You have a problem with that?

Chill, F*S

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 06:51:13 PM
Since this thread is ongoing, I've decided to continue to participate to it's conclusion.

By calling SRS simply an option has the effect of the quote from an article below, which summarizes the concern of some in the TS community about Non-op .

Quote from: ts-si.org Ms. Sharon Gaughan

    Asserting that SRS is an option for a person born transsexual, even when all other factors are favorable, promotes pseudoscientific approaches to public policy. Denying the underlying medical reality of transsexuals has the consequent effect of characterizing SRS as elective surgery that is minimally cosmetic and not reconstructive.

    This unscientific denial stymies initiatives to obtain research attention for transsexuals, improve medical practices, secure legal protection, and provide a variety of needed social services.

    Let transsexuals be transsexuals.

    Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition.

    Link: What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op Notion

Val,

Does that mean you share Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

Quote from: mimpi on October 15, 2011, 06:57:37 PM
What do I mean by equality?

That we are all human beings and our rights are equal.

You have a problem with that?

Chill, F*S

I am not disputing that. Of course your statement is true. That is muddying the issue, which is medical intervention. Do you have a medical condition and if not, allow those people to obtain their treatment in peace.

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 06:58:36 PM
Val,

Does that mean you share Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

I share the statement that SRS is not elective. And if you say it is, you are putting down every woman who has the medical condition of transsexuality where surgery was required. Women who needed that surgery for their life.

SandraJane, are you of the opinion that SRS is elective?

My medical team says otherwise.


p.s. I am simply answering your questions. If my responses are locked, deleted, removed then so be it.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:00:31 PM
I share the statement that SRS is not elective. And if you say it is, you are putting down every woman who has the medical condition of transsexuality. Women who needed that surgery for their life.

I was asking if you are in agreement with all of Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

How many times do you have to repeat the same thing over and over?

What does "to its conclusion" mean to you?

Ha Ha! SRS is not Elective Surgery, please don't put words in my...uh post that aren't there. Is this your LBJ imitation...."Just get'em to deny it.." Medical Team?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 06:59:20 PM
I am not disputing that. Of course your statement is true. That is muddying the issue, which is medical intervention. Do you have a medical condition and if not, allow those people to obtain their treatment in peace.

Actually I do have a medical condition: asthma, and I use a salbutamol inhaler.

Why you seem to have got it into your head that I'm denying anyone medical care and free medical care for all at that (I'm a communist), is totally belong my understanding.

You are coming across as extremely agitated and angry. Can't say I blame you, it's an utter disgrace the way transsexualism is treated in the feral capitalist economy of the United States. Hopefully in the not too distant future all that will change.

I must agree that SRS is a medicaly nescesary treatment.

However so many of us are incapable of getting our surgeries due to finance issues that it seems to me that we can not only go by penis/no penis as the deciding factor of what is male or female.
Granted I have a vested interest in being legaly female in spite of my physical reality, so anything I say on the matter must be looked at with a jaundiced eye.

Quote from: cynthialee on October 15, 2011, 07:34:04 PM
I must agree that SRS is a medicaly nescesary treatment.

However so many of us are incapable of getting our surgeries due to finance issues that it seems to me that we can not only go by penis/no penis as the deciding factor of what is male or female.

Exactly. As I have hopefully demonstrated the only true solution to all trans issues lies in a sympathetic and caring socialist solution with free health care for all.

Transphobia and homophobia could similarly be eliminated by a state sponsored re education drive.

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 07:12:38 PM
I was asking if you are in agreement with all of Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

I share the opinion that there are transsexual women who cannot for medical or other reasons have surgery and are in a permanent state of pre-op, now known as non-op or no-op. These are very legitimate reasons and who cannot empathize with the plight of those women. I certainly feel compassion for those ladies.

I also share the concern that some transgender people pose as transsexuals. And that some make assertions that SRS is merely an option, which has real effect on TS people.

Quote from: ts-si.org Ms. Sharon Gaughan article: What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op NotionWe must have a special concern about the behavior of non-transsexuals who pose as transsexuals and publicize themselves as non-op. A common assertion has it that GRS/SRS is merely an option selected by individuals at one extreme end of a gender spectrum.

I dont think we can deny this happens.

QuoteWhat does "to its conclusion" mean to you?

I meant that I would continue to discuss topics that come up here in this thread until we either get tired of talking or it gets locked.

QuoteHa Ha! SRS is not Elective Surgery, please don't put words in my...uh post that aren't there. Is this your LBJ imitation...."Just get'em to deny it.."

I wasnt trying to. What I was trying to do was to understand your concern for my quote of the article about elective surgery. Which led me to think you may agree that it is elective.

QuoteMedical Team?

Certainly. Once my letters were obtained there was a medical team to treat my condition with surgery. I have a notarized letter from my surgeon that states my surgery was medically necessary.

Maybe we are all trying to say the same thing in different ways? It can be hard to know sometimes.

Quote from: Laura91 on October 15, 2011, 07:50:20 PM
Well, while it's a nice idea in theory, I doubt it could be put into practice. There are a lot of willfully ignorant people out there.

Hehe, they will be sorted out pronto.

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 07:12:38 PM
Ha Ha! SRS is not Elective Surgery, please don't put words in my...uh post that aren't there. Is this your LBJ imitation...."Just get'em to deny it.." Medical Team?

Oh, you didnt answer the question. Can you please weigh in on whether SRS is elective or not?

My question was:

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:00:31 PM
SandraJane, are you of the opinion that SRS is elective?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:51:56 PM
I also share the concern that some transgender people pose as transsexuals.

Suppose we could interrogate them to find out the truth. Waterboarding sound like a good idea?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 08:08:06 PM
Oh, you didnt answer the question. Can you please weigh in on whether SRS is elective or not?

My question was:

Already answered it Val. By the way...your link to TS-Si...

You might want to remove it.

SJ

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 08:15:59 PM
Already answered it Val. By the way...your link to TS-Si...
You might want to remove it.

SJ

I took your previous answer in a different context since you preceded it with a laugh and thought you were only repeating a question with a question. Glad you agree.

As far as removing the link, I'm assuming it is a banned site? And why is that, why are we banning people's words?

I will remove it since it seems objectionable. What can be objectionable about it, I have no idea.