Quote from: EmmaM on October 17, 2011, 11:05:50 PM
No.

The social contract was breached. Somebody handed us a ton of money to spend on college educations and promised us a job when we got done. There are no jobs. Mister big boss is busy paying his bills with the payment we can barely afford to make instead of hiring. Then he goes looking for recourse when we stop paying because we just can't anymore - kid's gotta eat, ya know? How am I ever supposed to get a decent job with missing front teeth and the inability to stop panicking from worry over wage garnishments that will cost me the 20 hour a week job I had to stop going to that school and sell my soul for? I would grind my spine to dust for someone, I would work in a field, but hell, they're not hiring either.

I know where you are coming from.  I decided not to get college courses after me being laid off 10 years ago.  I saw this coming even before the Enron failure/ 9-11, a marker in our recent history.  Some of my fellow middle-aged ex co-workers did do the courses and most are in hock now because completing their courses did not produce any or very little job time.  The job market has changed very drastically over the past decade, a college degree no longer guarantees a job as it did in the 70's and 80's.  There were a lot of recruiters from the Fortune 500 on campuses around graduation time.  It is a crapshoot with higher education now.  The influx of illegal workers and the wage advantage taken of them does not help an able-bodied citizen like you to get the outdoor jobs out in the boonies.  It is hard seasonal work out there.  Good luck!
 

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 17, 2011, 11:20:44 PM
Oh well, I am a scoundrel then.. I love this country. It sure beats Iran.

I was born and raised here.  I joined the military and got spat at and given the finger while wearing the uniform during the Vietnam War.  Despite that I still love my country.  I vote, pay taxes and I do the civil duties when called for without complaint.   Yes, this beats Iran, Cuba, China and others despite the hell I am still going through with some members of my generation that still shun me because these these duties I have done and the American ideals I still believe in. 
  Joelene

I took a pic of my posterior tonight and put it on fb with the caption, "OCCUPY THIS"

I did my part.

The only way it sticks is if all of this is followed up by political organization and political action.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 07, 2011, 01:46:32 PMLike it or not, increasing the tax on the wealthy is a quick and easy way to begin the healing . . . Of course, we need to clean house too and get rid of the politicians who have been supporting this transference of wealth . . . Wouldn't that be a treat?

That and do away with the "tax-exempt" status of "non-for-profits", especially all those religious organizations that overtly influence with their false moralizing just about every aspect of our highly politicized lives . . . The greed of the US dollar trumpeted as the latest, greatest religion precludes any further hope of an always illusionary "separation of church and state". "Anyone ever do a study on how THAT might help our catastrophic US debt / trade deficits? Ya know, those "false idols" and "fallacies that beset man's minds" that our kids don't believe in anyway and they're only beginning to pay for now!

The financial meltdown that happened in 2008 has primarily the result of the rescinding of the Glass Steagall Act of 1933.  That act basically said banks can't engage in risky investing.  The Act was a direct result of lessons learned from The Great Depression.  And those same bank's depositors typically enjoyed protection from bank failure or run-ons through the FDIC, which was created shortly after the Glass Steagall Act passed.

Back then, our elected officials had learned a hard lesson.  And they set forth protections so that would never happen again.  And it was working just fine.  Until...

In 1999 Congress passed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which effectively rescinded the Glass Steagal Act and allowed banks to engage in risky investing.  It only took nine years for the collapse.  That's the problem when you have no regulations on how those entrusted with holding other people's money invest it.  And the lack of regulations on Wall Street invited the same kind of irresponsibility. 

Why worry?  It's not MY MONEY!

Our legislative branch creates the laws.  Our judicial branch is supposed to prosecute those who break the laws.  Both failed us.  Why?  Because huge sums of money were waved in front of the faces of our elected officials and they wanted to keep their jobs.  And our system is set up such that you need money to win elections.  Campaign laws are so lax they allow anyone to donate anything to anyone without disclosure.  Lobbyists fly into DC with boatloads of cash ready to do whatever it takes to get our elected officials to see things their way.  How can they resist?

And the rest of us wonder why allowing the foxes to guard the hen house hasn't panned out so well.

I saw one of my former friends. He is this gay guy and he's the biggest attention wanter. Wouldn't you know, he's into the Occupy stuff now.

It's instant ego gratification for most young people... therefore. I will not be participating at any of the protests unless it's going to go see the circus. It is a circus...they never know the real protesters. Just a bunch of unwashed, mad max looking hippy kids.

I'll take you seriously when you cut your hair, put on some nice clothes, and speak in a manner that is appropriate. This anti capitalist b.s. is exactly that...these kids are just waiting for Mommy and Daddy to bail them up.

Does there need to be a solution? Yes. But protesting won't reach it. It has to happen within the culture, by those who have families and morals.

Quote from: Kiera on October 18, 2011, 07:32:53 AM
That and do away with the "tax-exempt" status of "non-for-profits", especially all those religious organizations that overtly influence with their false moralizing just about every aspect of our highly politicized lives . . . The greed of the US dollar trumpeted as the latest, greatest religion precludes any further hope of an always illusionary "separation of church and state". "Anyone ever do a study on how THAT might help our catastrophic US debt / trade deficits? Ya know, those "false idols" and "fallacies that beset man's minds" that our kids don't believe in anyway and they're only beginning to pay for now!

My astronomy club of 350+ members is a non-profit 501 (c)(3) just like any other educational or faith based organization here in the US.  We still have to file with the IRS, even though we pay no taxes.  We just gave our treasurer a $299 Quickbooks for non-profits to handle our transactions properly for tax reporting.  We still have to pay for something or someone to process the transactions anyway.  The same with the churches and other places of worship plus some of the LGBT and Transgender chapters.  We cannot fund nor back a candidate running for office, the political parties, nor receive funds and other consumables from any of those political entities. 
  We can lobby for our interest to government officials such as the successful last service mission to the Hubble Space Telescope that was cancelled at that time and NASA (a government agency) gives us free public outreach materials.  But the faith based organizations have a hard time lobbying due to separation of church and state issues that would come up. 
  Joelene

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 17, 2011, 11:20:44 PM
Oh well, I am a scoundrel then.. I love this country. It sure beats Iran.

Not at football it doesn't! The whole world outside the US was cheering on Iran that day at the World Cup Finals.

Quote from: tekla on October 18, 2011, 06:51:28 AM
The only way it sticks is if all of this is followed up by political organization and political action.

Lennin 1910

I saw a picture yesterday of a small group of people in Antarctica holding Occupy signs.  So in four short weeks, the movement has reached all seven continents. 

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 18, 2011, 01:28:02 PM
I'll take you seriously when you cut your hair, put on some nice clothes, and speak in a manner that is appropriate. This anti capitalist b.s. is exactly that...these kids are just waiting for Mommy and Daddy to bail them up.

Does there need to be a solution? Yes. But protesting won't reach it. It has to happen within the culture, by those who have families and morals.

And the general population will take you seriously when you stop pretending that you're a woman and act like the man you were born to be.  That's the problem with telling others to conform to social standards.  You gotta practice what you preach.

As far as protesting, I think the results speak for themselves: The Boston Tea Party, the Civil Rights March on Washington, Stonewall, the Moratorium against the Viet Nam War, and that's just here in the U.S.  Elsewhere in the world there was Tiananmen Square, the Salt March, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and a whole bunch of others.  So yeah, protesting really is effective, as long as the masses participate.

I was in the service during the Vietnam War. I missed going there by thismuch. What got America out of Vietnam was when many middle class parents saw that their sons and daughters were coming back injured (physically and emotionally), missing limbs, or dead. Protests are very effective and focused.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 19, 2011, 08:13:05 AM
And the general population will take you seriously when you stop pretending that you're a woman and act like the man you were born to be.  That's the problem with telling others to conform to social standards.  You gotta practice what you preach.

I agree.  Stereotyping the protesters as attention-seeking hippie kids is the same as saying that all transgenders are perverts just because there are a few guys who really do like wanking in women's clothes while thinking about raping little kids.

People REALLY need to stop watching the mainstream news.  If you want to know what the protesters are really like, watch the amateur videos of the protests posted on the internet.  Then you'll get to see everything that the mainstream media conveniently forgets to include when they edit their footage.

While some of the protesters may be foolish, not all of them are.  There are real problems in this world, and some people want real solutions.  The Occupy movement is just like any other.  It has a few visionary leaders, some bad apples, and a bunch of regular people who are somewhere in the middle.  Of course, people will never know this if all they ever watch is Faux News.

When I was at the Occupy Chicago protest I got a chance to talk to some of "the regulars".  Most of them were younger and all were college grads.  Every one of them talked about these enormous school loans they have to pay back and how they can't find a job to do that and live on their own.  They, like the earlier generations, justified taking out school loans as an investment that would be paid back with future earnings.  A lot of them had MBAs because bachelor's degrees are a dime a dozen.  And that added a lot to their debt.  When they got their degrees they couldn't find a decent job.  I heard how they held two and three menial jobs just to survive - AND make their school loan payments.  Most payments were the size of a starter mortgage payment.  They want to own a home of their own but they have no hope being strapped with huge school loans in a crappy job market.

And we wonder why the housing market is so bad...

There's a petition going around to forgive the school loan debt as a way to help jump start the economy.  Already they have 500,000 signatures.  http://signon.org/sign/want-a-real-economic?source=c.fwd.in&r_by=1328617  I have no problem with that because many of the loan agencies used predatory practices to entice these kids into the loans, knowing they had no way of ever getting out of paying it back (thanks to the Bush administration). 

OWS isn't giving up and that's a good thing. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 19, 2011, 01:36:26 PM
When I was at the Occupy Chicago protest I got a chance to talk to some of "the regulars".  Most of them were younger and all were college grads.  Every one of them talked about these enormous school loans they have to pay back and how they can't find a job to do that and live on their own.  They, like the earlier generations, justified taking out school loans as an investment that would be paid back with future earnings.  A lot of them had MBAs because bachelor's degrees are a dime a dozen.  And that added a lot to their debt.  When they got their degrees they couldn't find a decent job.  I heard how they held two and three menial jobs just to survive - AND make their school loan payments.  Most payments were the size of a starter mortgage payment.  They want to own a home of their own but they have no hope being strapped with huge school loans in a crappy job market.

And we wonder why the housing market is so bad...

There's a petition going around to forgive the school loan debt as a way to help jump start the economy.  Already they have 500,000 signatures.  http://signon.org/sign/want-a-real-economic?source=c.fwd.in&r_by=1328617  I have no problem with that because many of the loan agencies used predatory practices to entice these kids into the loans, knowing they had no way of ever getting out of paying it back (thanks to the Bush administration). 

OWS isn't giving up and that's a good thing. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 19, 2011, 08:13:05 AM
And the general population will take you seriously when you stop pretending that you're a woman and act like the man you were born to be.  That's the problem with telling others to conform to social standards.  You gotta practice what you preach.

As far as protesting, I think the results speak for themselves: The Boston Tea Party, the Civil Rights March on Washington, Stonewall, the Moratorium against the Viet Nam War, and that's just here in the U.S.  Elsewhere in the world there was Tiananmen Square, the Salt March, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and a whole bunch of others.  So yeah, protesting really is effective, as long as the masses participate.

Should have known Julie would be the other person to site the dimease of the Glass-Steagal Act!
Brings to mind the forgotten concept of "Jubilee", an Old Testament practice of forgiving one's debt every 50 yrs so they have their ancestral land given back to them. What does debt also do? Earn interest! Never ending circle.

Yes they were effective, but let us hope the current protests don't go the way of the "Bonus War" or the "68' Chicago Democratic Convention Protest", where Political Leaders sic'd the Army and the Police on the Protesters. To effect a change with bite, the protests will have to energize We The People, ie. "VOTERS", to take it a step further to the polls and quit sitting on fannies watching FOX News or Reality TV shows. Change demands ACTION, and what should those actions be?

The next 12.5 months are sure going to be interesting.

Just a note to all you protesting types. When the '12 GOP Convention takes place, be very careful.
It's here in Florida, Tampa. We have concealed carry here, thank God; and a very liberal "stand your ground law," praise Jesus. So I wouldn't recommend charging the bus lines, happened in '08. Or putting trash bins through store windows, also in '08.

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate. Your sides communism, fascism, and/or socialism has all been tried before and failed; always. It always implodes or stagnates. The Chinese are a few years from collapse. Read some finance papers. Their banks are way, way worse off then ours. Their population has a gender time bomb built in, due to one child. Their government at some point can't stimulate 10% growth by way of infrastructure projects. Those jobs we shipped out a generation or two ago, are now headed to Africa.

Cuba, what a joke. North Korea, their people are starving to death. Venezuela, has rolling black outs. So much for nationalization, eh Hugo?

Meanwhile. The former Soviet bloc states all made a bee- line for NATO and the EU. Why? They knew Russia would revert to being the barbaric little neo-commie/fascist state that it has become.

So I'll take capitalism and corporations anyway. Because in the current system I all but get to vote as often as I care too. I vote on election day, when I shop for goods and when I trade stocks.

Also not only due goods get better, they also get cheaper as each generation of them passes. By that I mean electronics, cars, household goods, appliances etc.

This whole "occupy" thing reeks of "bitching about farmers, with your full mouth full."

There's a ton of money, fortunes to be made right now. Every technological revolution of the Industrial Era has taken place during hard times.

Made by people who worked hard, took risks and reinvested their money into what eventually become OMG, corporations.

So, keep the change.

Every technological revolution of the Industrial Era has taken place during hard times.
Actually the post-war thirty plus years were exactly the opposite of hard times, at least in America, and you going to be hard pressed to find greater innovation, invention and growth in any other 30 year period. 

Made by people who worked hard, took risks and reinvested their money
Actually a whole lot of this is based on thoese clowns getting bailed out - BIG --HUGE, and not reinvesting that money when we gave it to them, but sitting on it.  That whole risk thing rings kinda hollow these days.  To big to fail and all.

Tekla,

PartI: We did have the end of WW2 boom. But a lot of that innovation arose from that very conflict.
PartIi: I was against all but the initial "bailouts". If it's too big to fail, than it should be broken up.
Examples. AIG, at the time too big. GM, I'm not sold on that one.

And now, for everyone's reading pleasure. Was America born out of a lie?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15345511

Quote from: Michelle. on October 19, 2011, 11:20:23 PM


And now, for everyone's reading pleasure. Was America born out of a lie?

I don't think that's a relevant question. America was born out of anger, formed by a bunch of treasonous rebels. It has gotten out of hand, we see another empire that is abusing an ungodly amount of power, and we're angry again. That's how we roll. Don't know if there will be a rebellion. Don't think so.

Quote from: EmmaM on October 19, 2011, 11:30:14 PM
I don't think that's a relevant question. America was born out of anger, formed by a bunch of treasonous rebels. It has gotten out of hand, we see another empire that is abusing an ungodly amount of power, and we're angry again. That's how we roll. Don't know if there will be a rebellion. Don't think so.

Spoiled Americans are always angry at something,. I've never seen such a nation of ungreatful halfwits.