I know this guy and I've had a crush on him for awhile.  I've made that very clear and knows it.  I've asked him out a few times and been turned down.  But we are still friends enough to hang out together and have long talks in the middle of the night at 24 hour diners.  He also has been challenging me since day one.  If you've seen any of my previous rants about a guy challenging me or threatening to fight me, it's him.  He often tries to get under my skin and provoke a reaction.  When I confronted him directly about it he admitted he was trying to get me to man up and become stronger.  Which I really have in the last couple of months in a big way.  Also I'm pretty sure he's pulling my proverbial pigtails but I don't know for sure. 

On NCOD I posted a coming out message on my facebook page.  It was one of those generated ones from the NCOD app.  Quite a few people ignore apps and I didn't get any comments.  So I assumed no one saw it.  It's possible they did and just didn't understand or where afraid to ask.  I took it down the next day. 

So last night we were out to dinner with other friends.  It's weird that no matter who else we with, we always end up sitting next to get other.  And eventually we just end up in these intense little conversations in our own little world.  So we were talking about vampires and how their evil side manifests itself.  We are all of 12. 

Any rate out of the blue he says, "I think vampires are similar to transgender people."  I'm like, whoa ... what?  However I'm excellent at hiding my emotions so I'm sure nothing showed on my face.  I asked for what the hell he met.  He goes, "Well their minds don't match their bodies and it's similar because the vampire is evil but still in human form."  Internally I breathed a sigh of relief because obviously he's slightly educated at least although the metaphor sucked ...  So I asked if he knew any transgender people.  He said he knew a few crossdresser and a guy on testosterone.   

Then he proceeded to blow any good will completely.  "But I just think it's f***ing weird.  Why would you wake up one morning and decide that you don't like what you pee out of.  I mean am I just going to go out and chop off my dick?"  I immediately told him not to do that because he's extremely masculine and I want direct contact with what's down there someday, even in my dreams.  He took my reaction as backup for his point of view, which was not what I intended.  A girl across the table from us began lecturing the both of us on the difference between sex and gender and how society inflicts limited roles on gender expression and so on.

My friend kept on focusing on genitals as they do.  "I mean it's not like they have penises sitting around in drawers that you can just paste on."  I finally managed to say that there is more to a person's gender than just their genitals.  I mean it's not like other people see each others genitals on a day to day basis.  He kinda drifted after that and eventually changed the subject. 

Okay a couple a theories I have here.  Number one, he was feeling me out.  I've never had someone just bring up ->-bleeped-<- randomly.  Trying to figure out just what would make me react defensively or whatever.  My partner pointed out that even if they saw the facebook message they may not know if I'm FTM or MTF.  Since he was equally insulting about both sides he might have been trying to figure it out that way. 

Second theory he had figured it out and was basically telling me that he didn't want to know.  There was a point last week we were AIMing each other and I casually mentioned I had a day job.  I was thinking of watching my kids when I mentioned job.  But when he questioned me on it, I kinda panicked.  I'm sad to say he really doesn't know much about my home life.  I tend to leave it at home and he never asks about it.  I told him I would be happy to answer any questions he might have but in person.  Not over AIM where I couldn't see his reaction.  That received a non-reaction, reaction.  His failure to have a reaction says it all. 

For awhile I really did want to come to him.  Just because I like him so much and wanted to share more of myself with him.  Eventually I realized that he didn't want to have his impression of me ruined.  If I came out it would be very selfish actually and put him in an uncomfortable position he would not want.  It wouldn't make us closer at all.   That was a silly romantic notions that needs to get the hell out of my head.       

Third theory, he's an a**hole straight up.  Who knows.  I feel sorry for this other transgender friend of his.  I'm sure my friend is not nearly as rude to his face as he was to me.  (Unless he was referring to me when he said he knew a guy on testosterone.  That idea gets very twisted, very fast.  Like I've said I have never come out to him)  I wish I had stood up more.   On the other hand I can agree with him that it is weird.  As in varying from the norm in this world.  But that does not in anyway make it less real. 

Thanks for reading.  I needed to get that off of my chest   

ive had times when people who are annoying say mean things about trans people not knowing im trans. one girl saying things about she wouldnt date anyone without a dick which hurt my feelings (i had a crush on her at the time). she may or may not have been trying to insult me.

I've had several people bring up trans topics out of the blue. At least it seemed out of the blue, but when I thought about the situation, the conversation just drifted that way. However, your friend's remarks seem more strategically introduced.

I don't think you mentioned his orientation. If he is straight, that obviously explains why he doesn't want to date you. But if he's gay (not bi or pan), then he might have a strong reaction to finding out that you are trans. If he has taken you under his wing, or if he's actually attracted but doesn't act on it for some reason, then he could be going through a strong negative reaction, regardless of which "direction" he thinks you are going.

Tread carefully. He seems rough around the edges.

Really?  It one point in my life people didn't even know anything beyond transsexual which they labelled cross dressers.  Someone using the correct terminology was startling.  Although it's true there is more and more awareness everyday.   

Yes on his word he is completely straight.  Which, yes, does explain why he doesn't want to date me.

He does have a high than average amount of LGBT friends, as if he seeks them out.  Than he seems to like close relationships with men better than women.  However I'm willing to believe that he's just in it for the bromance.  Actually that would be good enough for me.

Yeah he does seem rough but at times he can be extremely sweet.  Although that could just be his youth.  He's only 24 which to me is young.   I dunno, we get along well but yeah it might get awkward if he ever learned about my past.  And by awkward I mean he could ruin my reputation within our group of friends.

Honestly, this guy sounds like a lost cause on any kind of potential romance front. And after what he said about trans people I would imagine he wouldn't take it too well if for some crazy reason you ever did fool around with him and he was confronted with the truth.

I know, I know for sure.  Like I said, I'd be happy just being a friend.  Yet he's touchy about that because of the whole attraction thing.  I probably should just stay away from him.  That's easier said than done because we always end up joined at the hip.  I know he likes the fact that I like him so much. 

I feel he's working hard to keep me at just the right distance.  Not to close and not to far.  Which leads me to ask why I'm letting myself be used like this.  Stepping back and looking at it, that's a really good question actually.

So, does he know you like him - that way? Does he know you like guys (whether or not he knows you're trans)?

The answer to both those questions are yes.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on October 23, 2011, 05:24:57 PM
I know, I know for sure.  Like I said, I'd be happy just being a friend.  Yet he's touchy about that because of the whole attraction thing.  I probably should just stay away from him.  That's easier said than done because we always end up joined at the hip.  I know he likes the fact that I like him so much. 

I feel he's working hard to keep me at just the right distance.  Not to close and not to far.  Which leads me to ask why I'm letting myself be used like this.  Stepping back and looking at it, that's a really good question actually.

Okay, well this part makes more sense then. I hate to say this, but I wonder if you might have a better chance with him if he knew you were trans. At least of getting physical, I mean. I can understand why that might not be preferable though.

You know, I've thought of that.  The thing is even with what's downstairs I'm pretty male.  I'm not smooth or nicely curved.  I've got hair everywhere, including a beard and muscles and I act fairly masculine.  Not to mention the downstairs growth is obvious.  Those things are not going to change. 

I wish I could put my finger on what it is about him.  Tonight I asked him if he wanted to see Paranormal Activity with me.  He turned me down flat.  It can never just be the two of us.  I don't know if he thinks I'm going to jump him or he doesn't want to lead me on.   It's aggravating really.  Male friendships are more complicated than I was previously led to believe.

Just a quick thought Squirrel, you're married (or in a firm relationship) right? Does this guy know that you and your partner are in a more open relationship than most? If not, then perhaps he doesn't want to get between the two of you by having alone time etc, as he's worried it could cause some kind of cheating and do a lot of damage to your relationships (both the one you have with him, and the one you have with your partner).

Just a thought, as I'm kinda stuck in that possition at the moment, and it can cause a lot of mixed messaged to be sent all over the place.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on October 23, 2011, 01:54:36 PM
Really?  It one point in my life people didn't even know anything beyond transsexual which they labelled cross dressers.  Someone using the correct terminology was startling.  Although it's true there is more and more awareness everyday.   

I was a bit freaked out the first time it happened. I was at an intimate dinner party with several of the men from my group, and the conversation just steered itself that way. I'm not sure how. I kept thinking that the two main instigators, who are pretty close friends, had figured me out and were telling me in a roundabout way that it was okay.

Turned out that wasn't the situation at all. One of them had recently had dealings with an out trans person, so his mind was on the subject.

Anyway, I tend to spend time with an older gay crowd at the Center. They're pretty liberal and pretty comfortable with themselves, and they're up on all the LGBT news. A couple are former drag queens. And people like Chaz are in the news now, as you pointed out. So it's not surprising that the subject comes up every now and again.

He probably won't be alone with you because he is straight and that type of interaction would feel too much like a date for him.  But who knows, maybe it could be because he doesn't trust himself with you.  At least he still does hang out with you, which could be a good sign. 

Yeah it is a good sign.  Ah I'm just going to let things develop or not develop.  Sometimes he's up and sometimes he's down.  It's possible that he has mood swings like everyone else. 

This is the first time I've had an honest friend.  By honest I mean someone who sees me correctly and I'm not roping them in romantically (or sexually let's face it).   Really it's strange but I think I like it.  After so many years of so much pain it's disorienting to have what I've always wanted.  Just a friend, nothing more, nothing less.    I think I would like it to stay that way.  Rather than go down the path so many other relationships have.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Obviously you know him better than anyone else on this board, and I don't know you at all, but in my experience, I get inordinately paranoid about whether or not people are talking about me, especially when I'm not 100% sure if they're in the know about me or not. For example, there's only one other guy in my grad program, and so obviously we're usually talking to and hanging out with each other more than with the girls. He makes comments that I doubt he'd make if he knew I didn't have the same junk as him ALL the time (nothing quite like what you listed here), but it's really just his way of establishing camaraderie.

There's been several instances in the last couple of months where people in my program have said particularly archaic things regarding trans individuals that I don't really care either way about, but they definitely wouldn't say if they knew I didn't have a penis, and my gut reaction is to get really worried they're talking about me. But I have to look at the whole picture (we all get along really well and have a great time together), not just individual actions, which I think could help you, too. If he treats you well and is nice to you on all other fronts and that passive-aggressive type of thing isn't typically his style, he probably wasn't talking about you.

However, if it's really bothering you, you have the right to tell him that. If he can't handle that, it's probably indicative of something unsavory you'd find out later.