Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 24, 2011, 04:13:01 PM
I myself am ethnic(half Persian). Ethnic women tend to wear more makeup than their Anglo counterparts.

It's funny you say that because where I'm from it's mostly white women that wear all the make up and women of a certain ethnicity (African American) who don't wear any make-up. 

I would def shy away from saying "ethnic women" if I were you because there are so so many ethnicitys that could mean and not all of them are into make-up.

Quote from: JoeyD on October 24, 2011, 04:16:42 PM
Is someone gonna have the balls to say that most transgirls who haven't had FFS don't exactly look the prettiest when they're natural?

You could say the same about most cis women. 

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 24, 2011, 04:13:01 PM
Maybe it's different in your community. I am from a large ethnic community, and I myself am ethnic(half Persian). Ethnic women tend to wear more makeup than their Anglo counterparts. Men want their women to look like trophies...and I totally support that.

But for me, it makes sense...I like to go out to clubs, fancy restaurants, the gym, etc

More baseless anecdotal assumptions and more non sequitur references to "dressing up".

Also, hi, "ethnic" female reporting in.  This is what she looks like without makeup:

You could say the same about most cis women.


And that's true.
But they pass as women.

That's what I'm trying to get at.
It's not a vanity thing.

Quote from: JoeyD on October 24, 2011, 04:16:42 PM
Is someone gonna have the balls to say that most transgirls who haven't had FFS don't exactly look the prettiest when they're natural?
Or is that just gonna be me?

Having seen several people without makeup here, on youtube, etc... I agree. I mean imagine this guy transitioning without wearing any makeup...

Quote from: JoeyD on October 24, 2011, 04:16:42 PM
Is someone gonna have the balls to say that most transgirls who haven't had FFS don't exactly look the prettiest when they're natural?
Or is that just gonna be me?

   Joey let me chime in for a min. I don't know why everyone here is so against makeup or why they're flaming the OP. Personally i luv wearing makeup and experimenting with it, maybe it's just different personality's.


     I think it's funny how you guys are saying most women don't wear makeup yet the makeup industry is booming, someone is buying that makeup? 

Not trying to be mean but it's a good example haha.

Secondhand embarrassment, much.

Quote from: JoeyD on October 24, 2011, 04:22:13 PM
You could say the same about most cis women.


And that's true.
But they pass as women.

That's what I'm trying to get at.
It's not a vanity thing.

Maybe that's saying more about rigid, imperiously prescribed social expectations about beauty, mm?

Also, something I didn't catch.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 24, 2011, 04:13:01 PM
Men want their women to look like trophies...and I totally support that.

Please tell me you're joking.  Please don't make me do this.

Quote from: Rukia87xo on October 24, 2011, 04:24:05 PM

   Joey let me chime in for a min. I don't know why everyone here is so against makeup or why they're flaming the OP. Personally i luv wearing makeup and experimenting with it, maybe it's just different personality's.


     I think it's funny how you guys are saying most women don't wear makeup yet the makeup industry is booming, someone is buying that makeup? 

When did "flaming" become a synonym for "call out on intolerant belief"?

I'm saying nothing about whether women, cis or trans or whatever, do or don't buy makeup.  I'm saying it's wrong to say "all women need to wear makeup", "ethnic women wear lots of makeup", or "women should dress up like trophies for men" because they're inflammatory and insulting to those of us who don't have a strictly heteronormative, binaristic set of gender and sexual identities and expressions.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 24, 2011, 04:18:44 PM
Also, hi, "ethnic" female reporting in.  This is what she looks like without makeup:

  Wonderdyke, i think you look great without any makeup but you've had full FFS so you shouldn't use yourself as an example...just my opinion 

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 24, 2011, 04:23:05 PM
Having seen several people without makeup here, on youtube, etc... I agree. I mean imagine this guy transitioning without wearing any makeup...

With the attitude you are showing "women must wear make-up to be pretty rawr" it's not hard to imagine why some girls have problems going out in public without make-up on even if they hate wearing it.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 24, 2011, 04:06:37 PM

Mahsa, I find a lot of your posts funny, insightful, and interesting, but this one rubs me the wrong way.  You're making a lot of assumptions, advocating a position ("all women need makeup no matter what", implying those who don't risk being seen as men) that is inflammatory and offensive, and also totally siccing a black marker all over the freedom for all women, not just cis women, to express gender or sexual nonconformity in pretty much any way they want.  I'm talking dykes, butches, bois, genderqueers, gender->-bleeped-<-ers, and any number of identities that might fall under the umbrella of female.  Any of them that identify as women are no less women than cis heterosexual girls who are makeup designers, femme trans lesbians that love overdoing it, or intersexed female-identified people with conventional gender presentation, and they don't need to put chemicals on their face to reach that state of equivalency.

blah blah disclaimer about not identifying as a woman or girl yet answering to this because i identify as female and as such feel that the question, being posed in the mtf forum, is inclusive of me

Well I support the different identities thing completely. Perhaps I went about addressing this subject the wrong way. Most of my friends are gay men who work in fashion and I suppose i am used to them critiquing every woman for being simple looking. I think that definitely carried over transition wise.

Wonderdyke, i think you look great without any makeup but you've had full FFS so you shouldn't use yourself as an example...just my opinion

That's what I was thinking too.

It's cheating and only making those who haven't had FFS(like me xD) feel worse lol.
This isn't imposing on a board for cis-women who don't need makeup and don't have to worry about people thinking they're "men".
It's a board for trans-women

kind of a big difference.
be realistic.

  Let the debate begin!! 

Quote from: Rukia87xo on October 24, 2011, 04:31:15 PM

  Wonderdyke, i think you look great without any makeup but you've had full FFS so you shouldn't use yourself as an example...just my opinion 

Quote from: JoeyD on October 24, 2011, 04:34:15 PM
Wonderdyke, i think you look great without any makeup but you've had full FFS so you shouldn't use yourself as an example...just my opinion

That's what I was thinking too.

It's cheating and only making those who haven't had FFS(like me xD) feel worse lol.
This isn't imposing on a board for cis-women who don't need makeup and don't have to worry about people thinking they're "men".
It's a board for trans-women

kind of a big difference.
be realistic.

While you are both skilled flatterers ( ), the way you phrase that suggests that there's a difference in the way that cis women and trans women should behave.  Aren't they both women?  Shouldn't they both be allowed to decide "screw it, I don't want to wear makeup today" or "hmm, this makeup looks good, I'll try it"?

There's a difference between makeup for passing and makeup for pleasure, and though they may sometimes intersect, the explicit statement from the OP is that all women require makeup to look good.

(And the looking good/passing privilege dichotomy is a WHOLE other can of worms that I don't want to get into, for fear of straying off topic and of ranting for miles.)

I am no mans trophy.
I am not on this earth for the visual pleasure of men.
I am not going to make myself a target for the males of our society to oogle.

If my natural beauty and bright soul are not pretty enough for a man then he can go jump in a lake and take his patriarchal opinions with him.

If and I mean IF I wear make up it is for me and my spouse.

Having to rely on make up to look feminine is a crutch I don't need or want.

And as for the man shown...give him HRT for 3 months, a few hours of electro and laser and he would be down right cute without a drop of make up.

Lol this kinda reminds me of an episode of Seinfeld lol.
Meets someone he finds very attractive they end up in
bed.  In the morning he wakes and sees what she looks
like without makeup and gets scared lol.

Not to change the subject lol

But where is the fun if you have to have makeup on . . .

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 24, 2011, 04:42:22 PM
While you are both skilled flatterers ( ), the way you phrase that suggests that there's a difference in the way that cis women and trans women should behave.  Aren't they both women?  Shouldn't they both be allowed to decide "screw it, I don't want to wear makeup today" or "hmm, this makeup looks good, I'll try it"?

There's a difference between makeup for passing and makeup for pleasure, and though they may sometimes intersect, the explicit statement from the OP is that all women require makeup to look good.

(And the looking good/passing privilege dichotomy is a WHOLE other can of worms that I don't want to get into, for fear of straying off topic and of ranting for miles.)

    I don't agree with her saying that all women require makeup to look good but i do agree with her that trans women should practice makeup alot more, it can def increase your passing factor lol. I think most trans women don't like wearing makeup cuz for them it's hard to apply, cisgendered women grow up learning how to apply makeup so it's not a big deal for them. I've been practicing makeup for about a year now and i still have trouble with it, it takes alot time & practice but it can be a life saver for some.

   *Sips on juice box*

Yeah, don't flame on Mahsa for her opinions, it's just how she grew up lol.

but i do agree with her that trans women should practice makeup alot more, it can def increase your passing factor lol.

+1
hehe i've never done that before.

I am going to preface everything I say by noting that I do wear makeup, and love the creativity that makeup allows. Ever since I began transitioning, makeup gave me such freedom in allowing me to play around and be creative, and see a sort of mini-transition occur before my eyes. Mahsa, I see where you are coming from, but I have to say I disagree with you completely on this.

I honestly think that more transwomen don't pass because of trying too hard, rather than not trying enough. I know this from experience. When I first went full time, I wore pink lipstick, eyeliner, eyeshadow and foundation every day for a while. Not only did this cause me to be late to school, but it actually hurt me in terms of passing. Wearing too much makeup will draw attention to you and possibly accentuate more masculine aspects of your face. It wasn't until I began getting tired of spending hours on makeup every day that I realized I actually looked softer, and more feminine with less or no makeup.

That being said, I think there is a happy medium. There are days I wear no makeup because of time constraints, but when I do, a little foundation, some eyeliner on the top of the eyelid and a bit of mascara does wonders for me (and using lip balm instead of gloss or lipstick). It helps me look fresher and more awake, yet it is subtle enough that it doesn't look overdone and retains the soft look that I aim for.  I don't do this to pass, because I think I pass fine without makeup, but I do it because it is flattering and natural, and not overdone.

But to be honest, I would take no makeup than too much any day in terms of trying to look more feminine. Being confident in how you look without makeup is a lot better than feeling as though you have to rely on it. Makeup should accentuate your femininity, not be a crutch for it.

Makeup is a personal decision.  No one has the right to say that you should, or shouldn't wear it.

Around the house my wife never wears makeup, but if she needs to go to the store for "anything" no matter how short of a trip, she will put on her makeup.  That's her decision, her right, every girls right.

I'm pretty much the same, I don't wear makeup around the house, but if I'm going out, I will put on light makeup.  My decision, my right, I do it for myself, not for those who see me.