Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:10:28 AM
I highly doubt that any therapist in the world would provide a recommendation letter based on that criteria.

You'd be surprised how convincing people can be when they really want something, or the lengths they will go to achieve it....

Quote from: Cori on October 26, 2011, 01:07:22 AM
No, not everyone wants surgery.  That's where I see a difference between pre- and non-op.

so, not wanting surgery......is this because of fear of going under the knife or something similar, or, is it because the person wishes to keep their male anatomy?

Either is a valid reason.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 01:12:29 AM
You'd be surprised how convincing people can be when they really want something, or the lengths they will go to achieve it....

then to me, it's nothing more than a fetish

Quote from: LifeInNeon on October 26, 2011, 01:15:17 AM
Either is a valid reason.

if somebody does not want surgery because of fear of going under, no money, etc etc that is one thing......but if somebody wants to keep their male anatomy, that kind of defeats the whole diagnosis of gender dsyphoria and yes, I'd have a hard time referring to that person as a woman.
for the most part, biologically speaking, every species on the planet is identified as male/female/hermaphrodite based on their reproductive organs and their genitals

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:15:40 AM
then to me, it's nothing more than a fetish

This is the answer to your question in the OP. Deciding for someone else whether they are legitimately trans is what others consider elitist.

the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:21:52 AM
the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.

you're right, but the majority of it lies with what is between the ears. 

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:25:46 AM
you're right, but the majority of it lies with what is between the ears.

That would be a skull, the majority of the time.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:21:52 AM
the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.

those organs are characteristic of male species but it is certainly does not define one as one sex or the other

Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 01:27:10 AM
That would be a skull, the majority of the time.

meaning?

Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:21:52 AM
the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.

like i said, it boils down to whether they want surgery or not

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:29:42 AM
like i said, it boils down to whether they want surgery or not

just because you got it?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:27:18 AM
those organs are characteristic of male species but it is certainly does not define one as one sex or the other

many people outside this forum wouldn't agree. that's already been said earlier. you look like you're playing both sides of the fence to me. it's either black or white as far as i would be concerned if this thread has any value.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:27:48 AM
meaning?

Meaning that, biologically speaking, skull differentiation is a much better indicator of sex than looking inbetween someone's legs.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:31:11 AM
just because you got it?

it has absolutely unequivocally nothing to do with the fact that i've completed my transition and it certainly is not an "elitist" point of view

Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 01:33:19 AM
Meaning that, biologically speaking, skull differentiation is a much better indicator of sex than looking inbetween someone's legs.

i suppose that if that was the case, more people would select ffs instead of srs

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:29:42 AM
like i said, it boils down to whether they want surgery or not

By saying so , do you mean that according to you a non-op transwoman isn't a woman but a man?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:35:41 AM
i suppose that if that was the case, more people would select ffs instead of srs

In all honesty I find it more important to be able live my life as a woman socially than to correct that unfeminine boy part between my legs that few people will ever see.
So yes, if ffs is vital to me for passing as a woman, I will take ffs over srs.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:33:48 AM
it has absolutely unequivocally nothing to do with the fact that i've completed my transition

This phrasing, coupled with the opinion you have expressed up to now, strongly implies that those who do not get surgery have not completed their transition.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:19:43 AM
...but if somebody wants to keep their male anatomy, that kind of defeats the whole diagnosis of gender dsyphoria...

"Dysphoria" is the condition of finding it hard to bear one's current state - in this case one's gender presentation. The official definition of gender dysphoria embraces anyone who finds their current gender presentation hard enough to bear that it affects their everyday life. The treatment for this depends on the nature of and triggers for the gender dysphoria - for some, therapy is enough to help them become less dysphoric - for some, change of outward appearance (clothes, makeup, hair etc.) is enough - for some, hormone therapy to change the body shape is enough - for some, only SRS (and a blend of the above) is enough.

But these are all recognised and appropriate treatments for different manifestations of gender dysphoria in different individuals.

If you consider gender dysphoria to be synonymous with the need for SRS, then you are not discussing gender dysphoria as defined by the healthcare community at large, you are using your own definition - and it will be hard to have a balanced discussion using that terminology.