i just want to put this out in the open for thought.  as we all are very aware, the biggest hurdle we have to jump presently is inclusion of LBGT issues/concerns into local, state, federal anti discrimination laws.  There is absolutely unequivocally no secret that opinions vary that leads to drastic amounts of fighting and very childish behavior within the group.  This needs to f'ing stop!  All the yak yak yak, name calling, attacks, so forth and so on, needs to stop.  No groups will ever have the same opinions and philosophy.  for example, if you dont agree with my opinion or i dont agree with yours, bite your f'ing tongue and let it go.  do not resort to childish behavior slinging names and accusations around for all that does is lead to more fragmentation of the "group."
If we ourselves, continue to remain deeply and pathetically fragmented on certain issues and fight amongst ourselves, how in the hell do we ever expect our elected officials to unite together behind inclusions of LGBT concerns/issues into anti discrimination legislation?? 
this is just some food for thought, so take it as you will

I agree but the first step in this would be to practice what you preach.

Quote from: Andy8715 on October 26, 2011, 10:23:38 PM
I agree but the first step in this would be to practice what you preach.

uh, i do

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
uh, i do

This really comes down to a disagreement about who deserves protection under such legislation.  No one should need to suffer discrimination based on their gender presentation, in my opinion.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
uh, i do

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:45:36 PM
ok, so here goes for the trolls

Oh I see

Quote from: Cori on October 26, 2011, 10:37:29 PM
No one should need to suffer discrimination based on their gender presentation, in my opinion.

This. 

Quote from: Cori on October 26, 2011, 10:37:29 PM
This really comes down to a disagreement about who deserves protection under such legislation.  No one should need to suffer discrimination based on their gender presentation, in my opinion.

i feel exactly the same way. nobody should be treated deferentially because they are different.  Everybody should have the right to express themselves in any manner they wish....it's the core principles where opinions differ and people get attacked because those opinions differ.  when this occurs, how in the hell do we expect elected officials to unite for our cause?  how do we expect one fraction of a group to support the other fraction of a group when petty BS occurs?

Quote from: Andy8715 on October 26, 2011, 10:40:53 PM
Oh I see

what is it called when other members habitually view your profile, habitually follow your posts, even pull out a post from 2 1/2 months ago? isnt that called "trolling?"

No, that is not trolling, just backing up their arguments with evidence. 

Are we only to concentrate on American politics for this issue, or can the European hop in?

I think all countries should be welcome to discuss

Quote from: Andy8715 on October 26, 2011, 10:51:30 PM
No, that is not trolling, just backing up their arguments with evidence.

sorry, but it is trolling and I dont like to be trolled.

now back on subject, most states require completion of SRS in order to legally change their gender markers on legal documents and once that is done, the person is adequately protected under the protected class of "sex" and if an infraction occurs, can file a claim of "sex" discrimination.
Now if I have an opinion on something and it's the preop/nonop gals that consistently attack me (and many others), do you really espect me (us) to support and advocate for your cause regarding inclusion of "gender identity" as a protected class?  If a lesbian or gay member attacks me (us) because our opinions differ, do you really expect me (us) to support and advocate for your cause and inclusion of "sexual orientation" as a protected class?

chances are no, I personally would not do so even though I believe everybody should be protected.  If attacked, my reaction would be "F*** you, fend for yourself"

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on October 26, 2011, 10:55:21 PM
Are we only to concentrate on American politics for this issue, or can the European hop in?

everybody should comment......what are European anti discrimination laws regarding LGBT?

You can change it in my state with a distinctly worded letter after surgery (could be hysto, top, or bottom surgs) as long as the letter is worded right. 

are you protected as a preop?

My state protects no one who is trans, pre or post op.  It's legal in my state to say "oh you're trans?  Well you're fired"

Quote from: Andy8715 on October 26, 2011, 11:14:28 PM
My state protects no one who is trans, pre or post op.  It's legal in my state to say "oh you're trans?  Well you're fired"

well, that's not true......post ops are covered under the protected class of "sex"

It all depends on where you are. The Nordic region is pretty forward-thinking about this kind of thing (that's where I'm from), but other areas are pretty backward. A nice overview is available on Wikipedia under the article "LGBT Rights by Country or Territory". You'll see as you examine it that the LGBT has made a lot of headway in Denmark, but not nearly as much as in Iceland and Norway. But as far as Denmark is concerned, we'll probably get some really forward motion on these issues since a Socialdemokraterne Prime Minister is assuming command. Left-leaning coalitions tend to be friendly to LGBT requests, though a lot of emphasis these days is placed on addressing economic and immigration issues. We'll just have to see.

All told? It's good to be a Norwegian LGBT, pretty good to be a Danish LGBT (unless you live in the Faroe Islands), pretty sucky to be a Polish LGBT (though it's half-decent for the T part). It is generally a nightmare to be LGBT in Eastern Europe.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 11:23:36 PM
well, that's not true......post ops are covered under the protected class of "sex"

That's up to the whim of a judge.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 10:02:05 PM
If we ourselves, continue to remain deeply and pathetically fragmented on certain issues and fight amongst ourselves, how in the hell do we ever expect our elected officials to unite together behind inclusions of LGBT concerns/issues into anti discrimination legislation?? 

It occurs to me that the older people get, the more fragmented they become. In The Netherlands the proposition recently passed that one can change his or her sex without undergoing srs or even hrt. This was changed because the old law in which you needed srs to legally change your sex was found to be discriminatory and against the universal human rights: It forced people to undergo surgery they initially did not require.
It has taken far too long for this proposition to even reach the government because many ts simply could not agree with each other on what would be a good point to legally change ones sex. A case where fragmentation has lead to an unnecessary delay.

Then again, how would you unite people who on some key points fundamentally differ in opinion? I don't think it can be done.