Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 02:56:36 PM
yes, I agree that that is the case.  I dont agree with her declaring herself as male, or should I use masculine pronouns?

Naw.
I won't if you don't.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 02:56:36 PM
yes, I agree that that is the case.  I dont agree with her declaring herself as male, or should I use masculine pronouns?

She is a woman, thus female pronouns are appropriate.

I hate to say but, I do feel like it gives the impression to people that we change our gender to suit our situation and that might not sit too comfortably with the public.  I do not agree that this suddenly makes her a man, just a self interested human like the rest of us.

I personally dislike the social concept of gender and would love to tear down all the barriers, but taking advantage of a broke system isn't the way to do it.  Work to change the system instead.

...but I like the gender binary.

Don't tear it down!

Thinking about it, the Dutch government is going to discuss the possibility to legally change your sex without the intervention of a court or psychologist.
If this passes (It will be a cold day in hell if it will) I am very curious what implications it will have on society's concept of gender.

Whatever, she probably doesn't even care like other uninvolved people do, I know I wouldn't. Don't be so uptight with "Oh she's declared herself male to get a marriage license so she iz a MAN!" because that's messed up.

Trista,
We have kept it amniable so far.
Don't blow it please.

Quote from: cynthialee on October 26, 2011, 12:18:42 PM


I am a bit of a criminal at heart. I can't help but congradulate her on gaming the system.

I hope that you find that man Val. He is gonna get a good woman out of the deal.

Gaming the system is criminal? I agree with some other poster in here, the system makes us inhuman.

Ditto on that man too, Val.

How is this any different than a woman pretending to be a man to go to war, or become a priest, or anything else from which she is being unfairly excluded?

Quote from: Joandelynn on October 27, 2011, 03:23:08 AM
You have a source for that? I only know that the current law proposal still requires intervention of both a court and a psychologist.

The national transgender network is currently making a proposal which in turn will be discussed by the government (at least, they said so during a presentation). I am very sceptical of this plan bearing any fruits though.
This can be read on their website (unfortunately in Dutch): http://transgendernetwerk.nl/2011/10/tnn-en-het-wetsvoorstel-genderregistratie-art-128-nbw/

Every time one of us throws a monkey wrench into our antiquated societal rules, it brings to the forefront the fact that those rules need change.  The old "one man, one woman", "you should be happy in you're birth gender, if not, you're mentally ill" and all the other myopic indoctrination we endure growing up and even in our adult lives, needs to be challenged.

That Megan chose this path to be legally married was just that, her choice.  Now she and her wife get to enjoy the 1100+ tax benefits legally married people enjoy.  When one of them passes, the surviving spouse won't get hit with a huge tax burden on top of already having to deal with a personal loss.  When one of them gets sick, the other can be there for her and make medical decisions for her wife.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  This was a smart move.

Same sex marriage is not recognized by the Federal Government.  But maybe, with enough cases being brought to the attention of the general public, the average Joe will begin to realize, "What has all the fuss been about?"  And we can move forward and enjoy real equality.

exactly.

I see her taking the system that is unkind to trans people and finding the loopholes to get herself married. Do you know how many gay and lesbian people would find a loophole if there was one.

People are so quick to judge her and to call her a man or to belittle her because she found a way through the system to be legally married in Texas.

Some people are quick to forget about the girl who married the firefighter and lost everything after his death because she married him as "F" as a transgender. She now has no income and her husband died and yet, based on our arguments here people would saying "good for you because you got married under the "female" gender clause. I am sure she is not reveling in those celebratory responses right now. She was left with nothing and is currently trying to get her lawyers to at least have the state of Texas to give her something because right now the State of Texas regards the marriage as forfeit.

So when Meghan does it the legal way and now is afforded the coverages a married couple has, people point fingers at her, calls her a man trying to be a woman, or accusing her of bringing down trans equality. None of you are in her shoes. She married the woman she loved and she found the loophole for it.

But rather than congratulating her, we condemn her. What does that say about the trans community on the whole.

She did read this thread and she told me she wasn't bothered by it. I give her credit for that.

Quote from: Annah on October 27, 2011, 07:53:57 AM
Do you know how many gay and lesbian people would find a loophole if there was one.

I got a taste of it. 

When Julie and I were asked to be on a panel at a LGBT conference, we let it be known we are both trans and in a lesbian relationship.  I talked about the process of having the birth marker changed on a birth certificate and mentioned Julie had done it but I hadn't, even though I was post-op.  And that meant Julie and I could, at that time, be legally married in the eyes of the state and the federal government.  One of the women (GG) in the crowd raised her hand and asked me how she could go about changing the gender marker on her birth certificate so she could marry her partner.

Two GGs in a lesbian relationship with one willing to change her birth certificate to male so she can marry the woman she loves.  That was pretty telling.

BTW: When I told her the realities, which included the requirement some gender altering surgery had to be performed, she lost her enthusiasm.

I totally agree with Annah here, I wholeheartedly support what she did.

It is ridiculous any hypocritical that some of you are jumping down her throat and calling her a man because she took advantage of the system.

I live in MA so I could legally marry with another woman but I will probably still use my male birth certificate to my advantage. I am not going to punish myself by limiting my marriage rights just because ciswomen aren't allowed to marry other women. I've gone through enough already, I think I deserve to take advantage of the few perks that come from being born male. My love for my partner trumps any judgment society can put on me.

Lastly, she has probably done more for the transgender community than most of the people here.

Lose the elitist attitude.

Let's not forget we're talking about Texas, a state that won't recognize anything but the original birth certificate when considering legal marriage so no matter how Ms Stabler identifies, the state legally sees her as male when considering marriage rights.  That's why Niki Araguz was screwed out of her widow's benefits by a Texas court.

So Ms Stabler decided to use the Texas laws against them, partly to benefit from the special rights and privileges that a legal marriage can bring and partly to poke her finger in their collective legal eye.  I can't fault her for that.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 26, 2011, 10:29:38 AM
In my opinion she compromised her integrity by declaring her identity as a male. So now that she has declared herself male, I suppose the correct pronoun to use now is he or him.

It is a setback to the transsexual community because the public will see that we are not serious about our gender and cannot trust what we say. Especially coming from someone seen as a leader.

It is true that a man having SRS doesn't necessarily make him a woman. He just proved that with declaring his manhood legally.

The above statement was made only as a supposition and is a common form of argument. I do apologize to Megan and everyone for using incorrect pronouns when referring to her. I was only trying to make a point about it causing confusion to the general public and perhaps legislators and it was meant only in that context. I do not believe Megan is a man but that she was simply using the system to her benefit. Using it in a way I disagree with and is bad for the transsexual community.

I'm pretty sure after the above post I used all references of her using correct pronouns. Even in the quote above I referred to her as she.
I'm big enough to apologize when I do something out of line. I've apologized before and I am sure will in the future as we discuss things with different points of view.

Val

That was a good post Val. Well said.

Thank you for agreeing that she is a woman. (That was the only thorn I had with the other side of this debate.)

Too bad the state of Texas can't agree to that.

I must agree that I do not know if this marriage will be a benifit or a bane to our comunity. I am hopeing it helps us but I must admit that there is a definate chance that this could cause some issues.

The dice have been cast.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 27, 2011, 01:13:32 PM
I'm big enough to apologize when I do something out of line. I've apologized before and I am sure will in the future as we discuss things with different points of view.

Thanks for your apology Valerie. I fully support everyone's rights to having and expressing differing opinions, as long as we can do it respectfully of each other. I also prefer to look for commonalities, in the hopes of greater understanding.

Z

Having it both ways does make it a lot harder to try to argue later for one OR the other.  It makes it look like - because it is exactly like - it does not really matter.  And it gets hard to get around that point once the tire tracks go both ways around the tree.

Quote from: tekla on October 27, 2011, 03:13:52 PM
...once the tire tracks go both ways around the tree.

your so funny, you always make me laugh.