Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 28, 2011, 01:46:30 AM
I'm not editing anything.

"A crime committed in the height of a possible sexual arousal"?  You're saying that trans women have the potential to rape other women, and that that characteristic is intrinsic to their genitals, which is a) insulting to men, because the assumption is that only "penis-bearers" are sexual predators, b) insulting to women, because you characterize them as equivalent to males in this situation, and c) insulting to the trans* community at large, because they're the ones who are far more often the victims of rape than cis people.

Rape is not just PVI, Jamie.  Rape is any number of things, and it can be perpetrated by someone of any gender/sex/genital arrangement, against someone of any gender/sex/genital arrangement.  To deny that fact is not only ignorant but sexist.

you dont think it can happen or are you in denial?  you got a creditable source to back up your claim about the trans community being raped more often?  A very popular debate (and it is not my opinion or stance) is that who's to stop a sexual predator (either sex) from saying they are trans for the sole purpose of gaining access to the opposite sex?
I dont think that ignoring the genitals is an option that society in "genderal" will accept

so i guess my main question is this:  for those who identify as one gender/sex/whatever and have no intention of ever changing their hormones, have no intention of changing their anatomy, what do we do and how do we do it? 
how do we convince society in general to accept this view?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 28, 2011, 01:52:50 AM
you dont think it can happen or are you in denial?  you got a creditable source to back up your claim about the trans community being raped more often?  A very popular debate (and it is not my opinion or stance) is that who's to stop a sexual predator (either sex) from saying they are trans for the sole purpose of gaining access to the opposite sex?

First result on Google, and sixth result, and that's without even trying to actually uncover comparative data.  Those numbers aren't pretty.  This one's a doozy, too.

Jamie, you're telling your own community that we are potential sexual predators because of an aspect of ourselves that hey none of us signed up for.  This isn't a good way to make friends.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 28, 2011, 01:59:29 AM
so i guess my main question is this:  for those who identify as one gender/sex/whatever and have no intention of ever changing their hormones, have no intention of changing their anatomy, what do we do and how do we do it? 
how do we convince society in general to accept this view?

By aggressively asserting that it's okay to be that way, instead of calling them rapists just waiting for the right opportunity, perhaps?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 28, 2011, 01:52:50 AM
you got a creditable source to back up your claim about the trans community being raped more often?

Trans population:

Sexual assault (64%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg 1)
Sexual violence in K-12 education (12%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg. 2)
Sexually assaulted by homeless center staff (22%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg. 3)
Sexual assault while in prison (15%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg. 4)

General Population:

24% of Women and 17% of men will be the victims of rape or attempted rape at some point in their life (Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault)

Quote from: Brooke McKay on October 28, 2011, 02:09:30 AM
Trans population:

Sexual assault (64%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg 1)
Sexual violence in K-12 education (12%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg. 2)
Sexually assaulted by homeless center staff (22%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg. 3)
Sexual assault while in prison (15%) ("Injustice at Every Turn", pg. 4)

General Population:

24% of Women and 17% of men will be the victims of rape or attempted rape at some point in their life (Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault)

is that overall or within the specific population?  64% of 100000 is not greater then 24% of roughly half the earths population

As someone who was raped by my mother, I find the assumption that only people with a penis are potential rapists absurd and insulting and unrealistic (some of the stuff that goes on in women's prisons is appalling).

Not to mention the assumption that anyone with a penis is sexually interested in women, which is weirdly heterosexist.

Quote from: Padma on October 28, 2011, 02:30:50 AM
As someone who was raped by my mother, I find the assumption that only people with a penis are potential rapists absurd and insulting and unrealistic (some of the stuff that goes on in women's prisons is appalling).

Not to mention the assumption that anyone with a penis is sexually interested in women, which is weirdly heterosexist.

it can go either way and does go either way

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 28, 2011, 01:59:29 AM
how do we convince society in general to accept this view?

The same way you convince anyone of anything:  education

What, you didn't think we were going to use penis rape and shotguns to convince society that we are female...

I think Jamies words are taken out of context.
She has a point, when she says that every man can say, hey I'm a woman and can have unlimited access to women places with wrong intentions, she will be accursed of saying that every trans is a potential raper, she didn't say that, she was only asking and trying to understand.

Tell me, why are those angry reactions?
After all, one can abuse the status of being trans and doing nasty things.
While reading her question it makes me curious as well.
You can take all the things who are writen about the subject but suppose taking a shower after sporting in the women's place, how will women react when they see a penis?
You can say, I'm a woman too but my guess is they won't believe you, do they?

This has nothing to do with saying that every non op is a sexual predator.
Just the fact that most women wouldn't be feeling comfortable.
Just do it, go to the woman shower and see how they react.
I think Jamie has a point there.

Annette

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 28, 2011, 01:28:52 AM
not to mention sporting activies......would be fair to a cis female to have to compete in the same class as someone with a penis and all the characteristics of male, but they identify as female?  say in a 100 yard dash?

I don't know about you, but I've never seen anyone use their penis for running.

More seriously: When there's a legitimate social interest in defining and separating men and women based on biology (men's physical advantages, crime statistics, etc), then the best way to do it is to use hormone levels, not genitalia. While genitals may be a decent proxy for hormones on a macro scale, they fail quite often on an individual level, and not just for trans people. And hormones themselves are just an imperfect proxy for things like muscle mass, sex drive, sexual orientation, and aggressiveness. Better to use the first-order proxy than the second-order one - it introduces less error.

Hi Annette,
the point you are making I initially in my naiveté, and un-knowing had made in one of the FtM threads. Oh my word!

I got flamed to cinders, I was absolutely stunned, taken aback, speechless. So much for a learning experience. Obviously not all things are equal, and then some.

Have a transman in the men's shower, binder off [i.e. breast] and a vagina, and then state your 'fact' being male... hello!

Go figure your own consequences to that very equal scenario...

Never the less, as I said: NOT ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL, and it is for that very reason that this issue will NEVER EVER be resolved, ever.

So why waste energy, it is not going to resolved.
Just – please – so long MtF pre- and non-ops stop wagging their members in our (post-op) faces I be so much obliged, really! We really don't want to know how many inches you still have in your panties, really we don't.
Just if you can keep it to yourself and don't make your 'dangle' such a proud 'female with extra' achievement. Now wouldn't THAT be nice?

What more to say,
Axelle
PS: and maybe save that butter for your pop-corn too? Now that be really nice

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 28, 2011, 01:42:03 AM
I never characterized anybody as anything and I suggest you go back and edit that comment!  The possibility exists both ways and to deny that it could happen is quite ignorant.  If you have a somebody that identifies as female housed with males but still retaining male organs, the possiblity exists for them to be raped (such as in correctional institutions) and on the flip side, someone with testicles, penis, testosterone identifying as female is in a position to conduct a rape if sexually attracted to a woman with a vagina if in the same situation............

...whether or not penises are available does not stop rape in women's prisons.

I don't claim to have a masters or anything like that in gender identity. But I do have a lot of experience from basic observation.

One thing I've learned is science is never an absolute. Definition change over time and what we may call a "fact" now may not be so in the future. With that in mind is there a true definition of the term "sex" and "gender"? Alot of what I've seen has always been based on stereotypes. Males are this, Females are that.

Point being is that sex and gender are such a lucritive term. we can define sex as the part we play in the reproductive cycle of life. However there are people who are unable to carry out such roles but it doesn't make them any less female or male. *Example from what Sarah7 said*

To me its a simple classification that we have developed to create seperation, no different that say cow or bull, black or white, canine or feline. It's that mentality that helped me cope with my situation for so long before I needed to make this change.

the problem I face is that I show a lot more femine traits in which makes my interaction with the human race a lot more difficult. No one can accept someone for just who they are. Men need to be strong, hit on girls when they are married, crush beer cans with the heads and any one who doesn't is considered "gay" and thrown into the eternal pit of f*** you to be a social outcast for the rest of their lives. *please be mindful this is just from where I lived and doesn't constitute the mentality of the rest of the country but the principles are still the same.*

Mostly it's all about labels. If we didn't have the need to push our own views on how others live their lives to be honest their problems wouldn't be a TG community. But it's just not the world we live in.

QuoteI know that prisons classify people according to genitals only, but most people do not see another persons genitals.

There was a recent comment in another thread (which shall remain anonymous) where the person was talking about using their penis to anally penetrate another person and something they enjoyed immensely. If that happened to me I would tell the police my attacker was a male.

When that did happen to me as a result of rape, I described that person as male. I didnt stop to ask them their gender preference. You will never get me to ascribe that person as female.

If that happened to me while making love (anally or vaginally) with a blindfold on and I never saw my partners face, I would look at that person as a male. I wouldnt be fantasizing that it was a female (maybe you would? lets get real here ...well, maybe popcorn butter lovers might ...to put a little humor here).

You gender theorists can talk til your blue in the face, but a hard penis is just that ...a male device.

If it's on my body, it gets chopped off. Because women have vaginas, clitorises, labia, breasts, etc ...in my opinion of gender theory. They dont have hard-ons.

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on October 28, 2011, 02:06:20 AM
I've met transwomen who have never taken a hormone, never had srs and the people in their life don't know they are trans. Nothing they do, say, etc. is male, it's all female. They look female. They are female...to the people that they run into on a daily basis. So what's the difference between THAT person and someone who is post-op with a vagina that society views as "male" even though they see themselves as female.

It just seems like vaginas and penises don't really shape what society thinks of people, the gender cues/physicalness that people give off makes society see them as male/female. Male/female isn't something society debates, it's something gender theory people and transpeople tend to debate. If I go to a bank in a rural town in Indiana and the teller sees with her eyes everything I do as female but in my jeans I have a penis, she'll call and see me as female. If the opposite is true, she sees male, but I'm post-op, it won't matter that I have a vagina. I mean I could pull my pants down and say "look, vagina! I'm a girl" but it probably won't matter.

This is true. It's only in a forum that people tell others what's in their pants, the general public have no idea and I'm sure they don't tell people irl. If you look female, it is just assumed you have a vagina and looking male, have a penis. So all the arguing in the world is not going to change what the general public view as either female or male. This is a forum where everyone can say pretty much what they like.

If one is so inclined to be a deviant, an abuser, that is in their makeup. They have low morals. Rapists and child abusers can be male or female. One can be raped by a penis or any other object, it's still rape. Women have raped boys......blah, blah, blah.... this is ridiculous.

It's sad to think that a few who have had a penis most of their life obviously viewed themselves and others as potential rapists the whole time, and whalah! has it removed, now is safe in society??!! Pretty strange thinking.

when I had a penis I viewed my body as male ...because well, frankly, it was. My body was that of a man.

Until the issue of sex assault in prison in general is addressed, it's unfair to presume a trans person of any genital configuration is somehow uniquely suited to be a predator. Rape is about power and control, not sexual gratification. A penis is not the only thing that can be used to forcibly penetrate someone and the vagina is not the only orifice that can be abused for the sake of asserting dominance.

Trans people in these scenarios are more likely to be the victims, not the perpetrators. Yes, even in prison! I'm horrified by how easily some of you not only lose sight of that, but are also so quick to throw other trans people under the bus.

If we defined our gender on whether or not we go through certain medical steps then we are essentially letting a doctor determine our gender for us without our input in the matter; thus completing the circle of when we were born and the doctor determining our sex by looking at our genitals without a say in the matter.

Gender is determined by who you are and not what pills you are taking or how many therapy sessions you went to or how many surgeries you have undergone. Gender isn't determined by SRS either. If this was true, then it would make no sense for the States to give out Driver Licenses with "F" or "M" without the prerequisite of surgery. The only reason why most states still do Birth Certificates this way is because of legislation. However, States are beginning to recognize that one does not need to have SRS to be the gender they want and they are changing the laws accordingly.

To say everyone must SRS or to take HRT to be considered their gender is not fair. It is also incorrect. If someone specifically feels they are not a woman until SRS is completed then that is their own convictions but don't assume that type of logic for everyone.

What I find ironic is when some trans will say to other trans "you're not a woman (MTF)", "You're not a man (FTM)", or you are not a woman (or man) yet" and then, at the same time, you have others who aren't trans that will tell those very same trans who tried to label others that they are not women either.

I wont even go into the restroom issue. It's not even worth talking about because it was so wrong.

Becoming a woman (or man) is not when you wake up from anesthesia after a surgery; rather, becoming a woman is when you open your eyes that you realize you are the gender you were suppose to be.

Quote from: Annah on October 28, 2011, 08:29:49 AM
Becoming a woman (or man) is not when you wake up from anesthesia after a surgery; rather, becoming a woman is when you open your eyes that you realize you are the gender you were suppose to be.

+1

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 28, 2011, 07:28:14 AM
when I had a penis I viewed my body as male ...because well, frankly, it was. My body was that of a man.

and if you thought your gender body was male prior to surgery then that is your own personal path and convictions. However, others here view our entire being; body and soul as female regardless of a new vagina or not.

I know many transmen are are very masculine and very male who never had bottom surgery. I view them just as much a man as a cisman. Same principle goes for transwomen.

When I go out with a man or a woman I do not ask them to show me their genitals to see what gender they are. I look into their eyes and see the gender coming from their spirit, their smiles, their convictions and their stories.