Teri;

You may want to consider becoming an activist.  You may need to out yourself, though.

But I'd bet that Target doesn't want bad publicity.  Most management droids might figure that the appearance of discrimination will more likely hurt sales than help.  Publicize your rejection on the grounds of dishonesty, and point out the catch-22 your situation brings to that.  Either way, you'd never get the chance to show you could do the work.

You can also use the incident to lobby your congressional representative to support federal reforms in discrimination rules, and cite this incident as the untenable choices faced by transgendered.

Target may just fall all over themselves to offer you a job, to 'prove' to their customers that they don't discriminate.

But, of course, you'd have out out yourself.  And, do you really want to work at Target THAT BAD?

(decisions, decisions...)

Karen

Teri,

I feel for you girl!  You are so gorgeous, and so totally natural looking.  I realize that all you want is to live your life in dignity.  You're not asking for a free handout.  You just want to do something add meaning.  I applaud you for that.

I don't have a profound answer like those above.  But I wish you the best, and know that the right thing will happen.  I hope it is better than you ever dreamed.

Kristi

I know this sounds impossible, but it is KEY not just to change your name with social security, but also to get a new SS NUMBER.  ALOT of transsexuals do not know how important it is to go through with this step.  This will eliminate many of the problems of background checks.  Changing your name and sex is not enough.  Without a change in the SS number itself you are going to run into these problems. 
Many people skip over this, and think a name/sex change is enough.  Its not.

I have helped several people change their documents. 

Also it does not hurt to do an intermediary name change or to change it again if you are running into problems.  Many places only ask for one previous name.  I know this seems like a silly step, but trust me when all is said and done it does help. 

I only know this all sounds like a bit much, but there is a right way to go about these things.   

Also change your birth certificate if you can.  As many documents that come up with the correct sex, the fewer problems you will have.

A new SS number will only have your new name and your current sex.  It will not reflect past data.  The SS administration does this largely to protect post-op transsexuals.  Credit reporting is tied to the SS number, NOT the name or a name change.  So are simple background checks. 

There are only three groups privilaged to get this level, people who are part of the federal witness protection, transsexuals, and victims of identity theft.  It allows you to start from scratch. 

So remember, do not just change the name and sex, ALSO remember to apply for a new number.  They cannot track your past with a new number.  Also only the federal government and state government are privilaged to ask if you had a previous SS number and name.  Because only they have access to that information. 

Also once again this would be a STATE discrimination case.  Only STATE governments have discrimination laws regarding gender identity. 

I would like to mention, I am a lawyer.  I have worked with transsexuals to help them get documents in order.  But all of this is simple advice you can find on the internet.  TS make alot of mistakes with regards to document changes because they usually do it on their own or do not seek out an attorney who has experience in these matters.

The question is...Did you get a new SS number?  If you did these problems should not be coming up.  Your old identity basically disappears.  If they try to connect the number to previous names...NOTHING COMES UP.  Because with a new name and new number they only see the new name, new number and new sex, but they do not see your past.

From what it seems like you have made the common mistake of not getting a new number, so your old name IS listed in background checks.  Your old name does not show up with a new number. 

I know this all sounds a bit weird, but to me it sounds like if a problem like this came up you did not take the extra step of obtaining a new number. 

Once again, I strongly suggest you contact lambda.  They will at least help you get your documents in order and find where the discrepancy is.  If not deal with the discrimination case, which is illegal in Washington state.  Discrimination on the basis of gender identity is illegal, and I strong encourage you to follow through on pursuing it. 

Thank you Amy T.  I knew getting a new SSN was available to victims of identity theft, but I did not know it was available to transsexuals.  When I get my sex changed, I will definitely look into this even if it requires an attorney.

Melissa

KAREN - You made me laugh.  Yes, I probably don't want to work at Target THAT BAD, lol!

KARENLYN - Thanks for the tip on Group Health Cooperative.  I'll give it a shot.  Yes, the Tacoma facility would be convenient.

MELISSA - I, too, thought of feminizing my previous male name.  Ah, what dasterdly hoops we need to jump through, lol!

KRISTI - Thanks for the compliments.  I, of course, am not showing you my bad photos.

AMY T - WOW!  Your post was enlightening and fantastic!  I had no idea that I could change my social security number. 

Does this affect the tally on how much Social Security will pay me when I retire a decade from now?  I would presume that Social Security could secretly link the two account numbers so that they know how many years I've paid into Social Security.

Another question:  Can I presume that I'll still have an 800+ credit rating or will I have to start from scratch?

I've always wondered why Social Security numbers can't be changed when you get hit with identity theft.  Now, from you Amy, I find that you can!  Maybe there IS some sense in this crazy world!

Your letter really gave me hope and good direction, Amy.  I'm sure that others appreciate your post, too.  Thank you!

Teri Anne

You mean I could have prevented so much discrimination by getting a new SS 20 years ago?  You have got to be kidding me!  I had a lawyer help with my documents too! Oh, this has me upset.  I have never taken my husband's last name. Perhaps I could do that and get a new number at the same time. Hmmm.

I wish sometimes that I didn't live in such a small town that also happens to be the county seat.

Cindi

The SSA will attach the old number to the new so that there is less of a chance for someone to commit fraud.  So you may or may not lose your most excellent credit rating.  SSA usually only changes the number if you can prove misuse of your number by another party or if you are harassed or are in a life threatening situation.  Be sure to check your birth certificate to see if your SS number in on there.  If so then check with the state that you were born in if they will update it with the new number.  With Real ID coming into being, lacking a valid birth certificate may limit where you can travel and also make it impossible to obtain a passport or even a drivers license.

YMMV, I am not a lawyer, and you should absolutely consult one before you do anything like this.

Another option is that you could refuse to put your social security on an application and note that one will be provided should they decide to hire you.  It is not hard for them to get around this but it will stop amateur efforts to root out your past.

There is definitely some excellent advice in this thread!

Melissa

Teri,
I too feel a hurt for you. These are problems I knew I would face when I left my place of employment for a new life. Is there anyway you can start you own business?? There are opportunities out there for female business owners. Small business loans for a female are kind of a sure thing.
My self, I kind of went to an extreme. I live so far out in the country, that the farmers don't even know what a TS is. I breed horses. It is nothing glamorous. On the flip side if they ever found out I would probably be hung from a tree.
Truly, as beautiful as you are, I think you will do fine. Just as posted above I would never lie on an app from one of those large companys. Just don't ever give up.

Best Wishes
Deb

I'm sorry for your predicament Teri. I guess the consesus here is that you can't get a job. I do know of several TS's, both male and female that have received jobs. Maybe it was my optimistic way of dreaming. I do know that I hired people and if there was anything at all that was wrong on your app. you could kiss that job goodbye. They didn't care what it was. You lied on the application.
Sheila

Getting your SSN changed is not an easy process.  It is process that requires the expertise of an experienced lawyer and it requires a legal process that is a bit longer and harder.  I usually got in contact with another attorney if somebody wanted to opt for doing this (most of the trans people I talked to were younger and open about their transsexuality, and working in Cook County, IL).  I only gave out simple advice.  This simply cannot be done on your own.   Changing the number  basically requires a lawyer who knows what they are doing and works on transgender issues.  It may be more expensive, but I think for job security it may be worthwhile to do it.  I know people who desired deep stealth who spent the money to get this done.  This basically requires a special legal procedure because changing the number is not an easy proccess, but it can be done. 

Like I said, multiple name changes may have the same effect.  Most employers only match up the last name you had with your application, if you did multiple name changes, it is harder to match up.  Only government agencies track multiple name changes generally.  I know it may sound a bit too much to change your name again, but it may be the only effective way of achieving stealth without changing your number, which is a difficult and expensive process that basically requires an attorney.

Luckily I am in the progressive activist.  I do not have to worry about these issues.  I also have no choice regarding the stealth issue, its not an option for me in the future.  I was wise to choose a career path where gender identity was less of an issue. 

There is also a proccess out there to get a second number.  It may be just as effective as changing your number. 

My advice is to speak to a lawyer with trans experience or Lambda.  The process is only effective if you do everything with the advice of an experienced attorney.   They will be able to help out in this proccess completely.

Also the Real ID act will be checking your birth certificate.  How much stealth will soon be determined by the place you were born.  Luckily I was born in Illinois, one of the first states that allowed trans people to change their birth certificate. 

Have you considered the idea that they meant what they said, that they simply feel you've lied when you filed 'no'?
Because you have had a different name, before. Now; me, I don't see why they would ask that question at all. But they did, and you filed 'no,' and they feel you've lied. That could be all there is to it. It doesn't have to be all about the gender change.

Thanks Amy.  I have some TS friends who have an attorney that has helped them with some TS-related legal procedures such as changing their birth certificates.  I wonder if this lawyer knows the process of getting a new number.

Melissa

Teri Anne,

What I don't understand is why are you bothering to look for a job at Target or other highly "managed" business and not resume your editing position as a freelancer.  I understand how tough it is to get a start in a new community but SeaTac is small enough that everyone seems to know everyone who is or was in film, television, theatre, and publishing.  A good editor (film, video or print) is hard to find in ANY town and there are several worldclass companies in the Northwest who can use those talents.  (You might also explore the Vancouver market as well.)  Stay away from companies with ultra-conservative HR departments and perhaps look for some company that is smaller and chooses talent from a personal basis.

Just one girl's opinion - but I know.  I am in the same boat.

Quote from: madison_1953 on March 16, 2007, 03:23:21 PM
Teri Anne,

What I don't understand is why are you bothering to look for a job at Target or other highly "managed" business and not resume your editing position as a freelancer.  I understand how tough it is to get a start in a new community but SeaTac is small enough that everyone seems to know everyone who is or was in film, television, theatre, and publishing.  A good editor (film, video or print) is hard to find in ANY town and there are several worldclass companies in the Northwest who can use those talents.  (You might also explore the Vancouver market as well.)  Stay away from companies with ultra-conservative HR departments and perhaps look for some company that is smaller and chooses talent from a personal basis.

Just one girl's opinion - but I know.  I am in the same boat.

This is better advice than even my legal advice.
Especially if you have references that respect who you are now and can keep things straight.
Just because you changed your sex, does not mean you should abandon your career.  Especially in an area such as editing and publishing. 

Thanks all for your comments.

Dryad -- I agree with you and think I've said as much in my posts.  Finding out I had two names could simply be viewed as, "she lied."  Not hiring me could be because of that lie rather than discriminatory intent.  There is the oddity, though, that the names are two genders.  Hmm, better stay away, in any case.

Madison -- Thanks for your suggestion.  I've considered returning to editing but the type of editing I did is ending due to a technology change.  Besides, between high stress there could be endless days of typing.  During those days of nonstop typing, I sometimes would daydream that prisoners who had televisions in cells had better lives than I was having (presumably the reality is different but that was my daydream).  Besides, I don't really want to travel an hour or more each day to get to Seattle to work.  That's not my idea of semi-retirement.  Target would at least have offered me a chance to be out of the confines of an office (my cell), meeting new people.

I received the letter from Target that included the "background check" from Choice Point Workplace Solutions in North Carolina.  They enclosed a Transunion (talk about an ironic name, lol) report that indicated I had a "high risk fraud alert."  It would be funny if the result (not being hired) wasn't such a negative incident for me.  I wasn't surprised to read that fraud alert, although I'd never actually seen a report of mine with that on it:  I knew about it because I WAS THE ONE WHO PUT THAT FRAUD ALERT ON by alerting the credit companies that a man I knew had threatened me (nothing to do with transsexualism).  Funny how something I created myself could now be misinterpreted ("hoisted by my own pitard").  I wish they could have said "Self-imposed fraud alert" on my account.  I guess, regardless of who put it on though, it still creates what I intended, an alert or credit block.  In New York, a friend tells me, people are now allowed to "BLOCK" their own credit so that people don't open credit cards in their name (identity theft).  I think it's not a permanent thing in New York - you have to renew it occassionally.  The California laws, I guess, have allowed me to keep my fraud alert active for years.  I've always liked that protection - feeling safe - but now, ironically, it's come back and kicked me, lol.

Second discovery:  Transunion LISTS my current (FEMALE) name as #1 with a history of three addresses.  One is my current address, one is the right old address but wrong PO box number and one is my best friend's address here in Washington.  Regarding my friend's address, the only thing I can figure is that I charged something to an online store and had the package sent to my friend's address (without changing my billing address).  Why the credit company would think I moved there is beyond me. 

Transunion then LISTS my PREVIOUS (MALE) NAME twice as #2 and #3 (exact same spelling).  They have various addresses listed under #2 and #3 -- addresses where I did indeed used to live.  Again, the odd thing is that one of the addresses is my mother's old address.  I had my mail forwarded there by the post office for three weeks (when I was recuperating from SRS).  I didn't move there and never changed my billing addressses but, oddly, they again have that as one of my addresses.

My birth certificate, by the way, having been issued in the 50's, didn't have a social security number on it.  Both names (female and male) on the Transunion report have the same (partial) social security number and the same start date (in the sixties) for that number.

Bottom line, reading the short report, I can see why Target passed on me -- A fraud alert and two names?   It's like those horrible Citibank identity theft commercials where they show an identity thief with a low voice and, on screen, a woman mouthing the words (HATE IT!).  Would Target want to hire this person to handle credit cards as a cashier?  Credit numbers she can steal?  I wouldn't.  It doesn't sound, as I'd presumed, like bigotry.  As my friend pointed out, Target has plenty of people to choose from.  The Target (form) letter advises that, if any of the things on the report are untrue, I should talk to Choice Point (or Transunion).

It's a dilemma.  I'd love to talk to Transunion and ask them anonymously -- "I'm a transsexual and I notice on your Transunion report on me that you list both of my previous names.  Is there a way I can get you to take my old name off?"  They would probably ACT very sincere and say, "Well, we wish we could take it off but, after all, that's part of your legal records."  In the back of their minds, they might be thinking of that Citibank commercial.

If I talk to Transunion on the record (using my real name and social security number), will this information gathering agency record the information in their computers that I'm a transsexual?  Why not?  Might be of use later.  Would they share THAT, too?  Presumably, they wouldn't.  If they put "transsexual" on paper, they open themselve to be sued for revealing discriminatory information.

Ah, tangled webs I weave.  I don't mean to deceive but when, exactly, can I get this new life and leave my past in the past?  Dual names on credit reports is something that can affect, in a serious way, many of us.  I guess legislation might help.  Amy T presumably still has the only solution for now - change my social security number.  More hoops to jump through, lol.


Teri Anne  - by the way, not my real name either (whatta lier!) - it's my Susan's name.

P.S. - I changed the SUBJECT TITLE in the Susan's lead post:
Old title:  "I can't even get an $8 an hour job at Target!  Bigotry rules!
New title:  "I can't even get an $8 an hour job at Target!  "Background Report" with two names!"
I think, as stated above, it's not because of "bigotry" that they withdrew the job offer -- it's because of I appear to be a fraud criminal with two names.  It's not, as I thought earlier, Target's fault, so I think my first (emotional) headline is inaccurate.  For awhile, I was feeling like I'd never want to shop at Target again.  Now, I certainly don't hold anything against them.  My apologies to them.  They're back to being, in my eyes, a stylish company with polite hard working people.

Quote from: Teri Anne on March 17, 2007, 01:16:43 AM
Thanks all for your comments.



If I talk to Transunion on the record (using my real name and social security number), will this information gathering agency record the information in their computers that I'm a transsexual?  Why not?  Might be of use later.  Would they share THAT, too?  Presumably, they wouldn't.  If they put "transsexual" on paper, they open themselve to be sued for revealing discriminatory information.

Ah, tangled webs I weave.  I don't mean to deceive but when, exactly, can I get this new life and leave my past in the past?  Dual names on credit reports is something that can affect, in a serious way, many of us.  I guess legislation might help.  Amy T presumably still has the only solution for now - change my social security number.  More hoops to jump through, lol.


Teri Anne  - by the way, not my real name either (whatta lier!) - it's my Susan's name.

I was a licensed mortgage broker as well as spending nine years in the retail credit industry. When I changed my name I told all three reporting agencies that I had changed gender and that if my old name ever appeared on my current report that I would sue them for defamation which one could most certainly do. The reporting agencies can be made to jump through hoops very easily.

Putting on a report that someone underwent a gender change would be a slam dunk defamation case.

A lot of awesome advice here.

I would consider, especially if you're going to change careers (I don't know why you would, but . . .) but is to look at a smaller company who are generally not going to go into background checks and so forth. 

Your mileage may very, as everyone has said, but I know when I started looking for jobs at smaller companies, the interview prospects were higher.

Of course, I haven't changed anything really obvious (yet); but smaller companies seem better to work for anyway , depending on the area and profession.

b/d

b/d - I agree that smaller companies could be better to work for.  The only thing I'd be wary about is that, if sh3&*t happens regarding being TS, big companies generally have HR people that are educated in legalities of what constitutes discrimination and what is proper.  Pre-transition, I once worked at a small company and it was like living in a small town -- everyone knew everyone's business.  There can be, though obviously not necessarily, more anonymity at large corporations.

Melissa - Thanks for your post.  You wrote that you " told all three reporting agencies that I had changed gender and that if my old name ever appeared on my current report that I would sue them for defamation which one could most certainly do. The reporting agencies can be made to jump through hoops very easily." 

That's very interesting.  I may just try it but I would be worried about one thing.  Someone told me that the free credit report I get once a year does NOT list whether other people are using my social security number.  Apparently, there's quite a problem with illegal aliens and I.D. thieves just making up a name and making up a social security number.  Unless you get the Transunion report THAT'S SENT TO PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYERS like I did in applying for work, you won't have any knowledge if someone is using your number under a different name.  One friend theorizes that the Social Security department doesn't care about it because the illegal aliens are pumping social security taxes into accounts they can never collect on -- also, of course, the Social Security dept. is keeping it a secret from you because they don't want you to get credit for the illegal alien's Social Security tax input.

Or - it could be my friends are incorrect and that problem (of dual names that SS and credit companies won't release to us under normal credit reports) does not exist.  I have no idea.

Are there two different types of credit reports released, one that they give to us and one that they give prospective employers?  I assume that there are because my free credit report LAST YEAR did not indicate two names (I had SRS 7 years ago) -- it also didn't have the "extreme fraud warning" on it because, presumably, I was the one asking for the report.

Thanks, in advance, for any guidance here from anyone.

Teri Anne

Teri Anne, if you were to run a background check on yourself, you would probably get a more detailed report.  Also, if you went through a paid service you might get more detail than a free one.

Melissa