You're right Jen. The Trans-Community is just as petty and childish as any other community. People will misunderstand, judge, compete, argue, just like any other community. I expected more from our community, assuming that we are all more-or-less enlightened; but I am so very wrong. I can't just ignore it and move along, not when it's causing pain to completely innocent people. Seeing people who are hurt makes me hurt.

I'm hurt by old transitioners (not all, not even most) being secretly jealous of young transitioners.
I'm hurt by young transitioners not heeding the advice of the more seasoned community.
I'm hurt by preop/postop people judging non-op people, saying they are less valid.
I'm hurt by people who gloat because they have it great, and by people who think they're better because they have it tough.

But I'm hurt most by the singling out of anybody. Just because a person is young doesn't make their points any less valid. Just because a person accepts their genitals doesn't mean that they're wrong or that they're the wrong type of trans.

If people are making you to feel that you're wrong for anything you feel, just remember that the one who is wrong is them. There is no right way or wrong way to be trans, and no one's problems are any more or less valid than anyone else.

If you're young or very early in transition, heed the advice of someone who has been around for a while. If you're older, don't automatically discredit the valid points of a younger/earlier transitioner. If you hate your genitals, don't say that somebody is wrong for embracing theirs.

I am so frustrated. I know that the world is like this, but I really expected more from our small community. That was naive, even the most enlightened people in the world can still be childish.

I respect the right of each person to self identify as whatever is right for them, without invalidating others' identities and choices. I listen to others' stories and try to understand where they're coming from, even when it is 180 degrees from my opinion. I look for common ground in each person. Yes, we might be different, but in what ways are we the same? Most of us are here at Susan's because of our experiences of gender disconnect, I empathize with the pains all have felt in this path.

Z

Samantharz, I can rarely place my feelings so well in a few lines like those you have written.

However I don't see why you would be hurt by jealousy from others. In fact I think jealousy is something you can't avoid. Envy is where I place the line.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 09:03:46 AM
Start? It's been going on for how long now? And it's really stupid. Unfortunately, just because you put "stop it" in caps and big letters, won't make people stop. Peope have their views and opinions and no one can change them. It's best to just leave it alone, ignore, and move along.

I don't understand this. Are we to remain silent when someone says something hateful? Could you clarify this please?

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 02, 2011, 12:27:15 PM
I don't understand this. Are we to remain silent when someone says something hateful? Could you clarify this please?

What I'm saying is that there's no point in people arguing back and forth about who's right and who's wrong because it will never end. At the end of the day we're all going to believe in what we believe in.

Okay, thanks for the clarification Jen.

Sure thing.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 12:53:51 PM
What I'm saying is that there's no point in people arguing back and forth about who's right and who's wrong because it will never end. At the end of the day we're all going to believe in what we believe in.

People are gonna think what they think. Will we not like it? Pretty much. But we can't change it.

Nice new avatar. But what happened to my earrings??? You were rocking it.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
Nice new avatar. But what happened to my earrings??? You were rocking it.

Too much duck lip.

Quote from: pretty on November 02, 2011, 03:25:19 AM
Not actually though. I think I am taken for one because my idea of a trans person is someone who strongly identifies with the gender they are transitioning to. I have to be honest about the fact that I do not understand the point of being a tomboy MTF or a femme FTM.

The fact that I might not be classically masculine in every way doesn't mean I don't strongly identify as male. There are actually very few people who conform perfectly to any stereotype, even when the stereotype is grounded in some general truth.

Many of us who are noticeably less gender-conforming are also gay and lesbian (so we're in good company). The widespread lack of conformity to gender stereotypes in the GLB community shouldn't be read to imply any weakness of gender identification. Have you spent any time around lesbians? There is nothing in the world more woman-centric than lesbian culture. It's the Vagina Cult of the Earth Mother Goddess. And the gay male side of the community is the mirror image of the lesbian side. The fact that we like to play around with superficial stuff that's normally associated with the other gender doesn't have any particular deep meaning.

Quote from: kyril on November 02, 2011, 03:13:22 PM

Many of us who are noticeably less gender-conforming are also gay and lesbian (so we're in good company). The widespread lack of conformity to gender stereotypes in the GLB community shouldn't be read to imply any weakness of gender identification. Have you spent any time around lesbians? There is nothing in the world more woman-centric than lesbian culture. It's the Vagina Cult of the Earth Mother Goddess. And the gay male side of the community is the mirror image of the lesbian side. The fact that we like to play around with superficial stuff that's normally associated with the other gender doesn't have any particular deep meaning.

Meh. I get guff here for my connection with gay men. Gay men are very phallocentric..

But really, is someone elses identity any of our business? Really...

Quote from: pretty on November 02, 2011, 03:25:19 AMI have to be honest about the fact that I do not understand the point of being a tomboy MTF or a femme FTM.
But a lot of people fill in way too many blanks and take that as an offensive, transphobic statement.

There are masculine women just like there are feminine men, I guess it is only logical that this is also valid for MtF's and FtM's.
From my point of view is what a person likes or dislikes unrelated to his or her gender identity.
I wouldn't call that thought transphobic at all, it is more about how much you value traditional gender roles.

Quote from: Venus-Castina on November 02, 2011, 05:01:50 PM
There are masculine women just like there are feminine men, I guess it is only logical that this is also valid for MtF's and FtM's.
From my point of view is what a person likes or dislikes unrelated to his or her gender identity.

I have always been able to spot trans people because something goes off in my head and says, "thats a trans". Passing, being passable, and being a genetic man or woman are different  concepts entirely.

    I agree with Samantha, it's hard enough being trans so why must we fight amongst each other like children? If we want to send a positive image to the rest of society about us then we should try'n help our fellow trans brother's & sister's with their problems. - xo

"Controversy" is my middle name...My last name is "Kardashian"

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 02, 2011, 06:39:25 PM
"Controversy" is my middle name...My last name is "Kardashian"

  Randomness 

Quote from: kyril on November 02, 2011, 03:13:22 PM
The fact that I might not be classically masculine in every way doesn't mean I don't strongly identify as male. There are actually very few people who conform perfectly to any stereotype, even when the stereotype is grounded in some general truth.

Many of us who are noticeably less gender-conforming are also gay and lesbian (so we're in good company). The widespread lack of conformity to gender stereotypes in the GLB community shouldn't be read to imply any weakness of gender identification. Have you spent any time around lesbians? There is nothing in the world more woman-centric than lesbian culture. It's the Vagina Cult of the Earth Mother Goddess. And the gay male side of the community is the mirror image of the lesbian side. The fact that we like to play around with superficial stuff that's normally associated with the other gender doesn't have any particular deep meaning.

I don't really think of it as being gender-conforming or not... maybe I think of it more as being about consistency in what you want I guess?

Well, I know there are feminine men and masculine women. Of course there are. But the question is, how many of those actually identify strongly as their birth sex? You have to remember, if you're only looking at birth sex part of the picture, MTFs would have to be considered feminine men and FTMs would be masculine women in the first place. You can't really use those people as an example because you don't know how they feel about their birth sex, and you don't know that they would transition if they were born as the other sex. Those masculine women, for example, might actually feel bad about being a woman.

And just personally, I would think that if your average feminine man, for example, somehow ended up born as a woman, they would probably not hate being a woman or desire to be a man strongly enough to transition. Because, well, they're feminine.  It's socially easier to be feminine as a woman and socially easier to be masculine as a man. And most feminine people are women, most masculine people are men. Why would they want to go out of their way to make it harder to be themselves around other people?

That's the part I don't understand. Personally I want to transition into a woman because I feel feminine and want to be able to express and be accepted for my femininity. I feel like a woman because I am feminine. I can't imagine feeling masculine and also like a woman. I mean, the word masculine means like a man in the first place, and feminine means like a woman.

BUT... the important part is that I am only agreeing to disagree on what is "masculine" or "feminine". I am not denying or disrepsecting anyone's identity or saying they should or should not transition if they do or do not want to. I feel like a lot of people have an immediate reaction of anger if I do not have the same views of gender as them even if I'm not attempting to say my views are better or something. That makes me uncomfortable. I think the trans community in general needs to pay more attention to what people mean by the things they say and get less caught up in the little details. I think the response of indignation over every little thing only hurts the image of trans people, personally.

Is this where I get my shot of hubris?

Mmkay.

As a relative noob to this site and this community I thought I would take the plunge and toss in my 2 cents. If you don't care for, I'll send you a pre-paid envelope so you can send me a refund.
I think being new to this community (Susans) I can see and talk about the issue at hand without personal bias (come on now people, we all have it) towards any given group or member.
We'll see if that holds up.


Just like with ANY other group there will always be people that think they are better than others and occasionally needs to voice that opinion. Now are they doing it to be hurtful? Are they doing it to mask low self-esteem on their part? Are they doing it just to chime in, or are they doing it because they are just being honest?
That last part might make you raise an eyebrow, but think about it. I didn't say they were right, I said they were just being honest as in their mind, with whatever form those neurons are firing and whatever wiring is in whatever form, they absoultely are convinced that their opinion is fact. Is that opinion any less valid than yours or mine?
Unless they are stating something blatantly and obviously disproven by corroberated and empirical date, it is anyones guess.


Now to address this topic specifically,
EVERY person living in society of any shape, size or form will by their very nature attempt to find others that they can most likely relate to. Within that grouping they will either vie for leadership or settle into a more submissive role. They will over time be indoctrinated into that group and defend it's very meaning and existence vehemently, sometimes bordering on the fanatic (or over).

So there is your sociology lesson from Capt. Obvious.

The issue to me isn't so much that there are people with opinions that some might consider wrong, hurtful or even threatening, it is more our (all of us) inability to process that information and put it into the "oh well, that person stands for something I disagree with and no amount of talking to them will help convince them to my side."
But think about it, they are thinking the exact same thing.

Does that make either wrong or right?
Is it worth it to really highlight our differences and put (in some cases) the most trivial of things about us under the microscope and claiming that is what defines us?

The trans community is amazing as it spans all ages, socio-economic boundries, religions, countries, education levels, etc. But that also means that none of us really speak the same language...

other than the fact that we share the commonality that we are all "different" than what is considered the societal norm. Beyond that, we diverge in 360 degrees in 3 dimensions across the entire spectrum.

I for one don't give a jumping rats ass what label you wear around your neck or if you have so many you don't even know or just have not yet figured out which size and color fit you best. You are all people to me and I judge you based on your actions and words. If you want to look down on me or up at me, it truly won't cost me a single wink of sleep. I know who I am (only took 31 years) and I am happy with what I am doing and where I am going.
You must find the confidence to be able to say that and mean it and then you will understand why actions and words that facilitate threads like this to be trivial.

That's it. Take it, leave it, skip it. It was worth the 4 minutes or so for me to type it.

- flamesuit on -

Quote from: pretty on November 02, 2011, 07:37:26 PM

BUT... the important part is that I am only agreeing to disagree on what is "masculine" or "feminine". I am not denying or disrepsecting anyone's identity or saying they should or should not transition if they do or do not want to. I feel like a lot of people have an immediate reaction of anger if I do not have the same views of gender as them even if I'm not attempting to say my views are better or something. That makes me uncomfortable. I think the trans community in general needs to pay more attention to what people mean by the things they say and get less caught up in the little details. I think the response of indignation over every little thing only hurts the image of trans people, personally.

There have been a lot of transwomen who have called me a "ultra femme gay boy" etc and other insulting terms. A community that is not unified is a community that will fail.