Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 01:32:45 PM
One time I went to the restaurant with the therapy group I was in. The women were all visibly trans and I saw the reactions of people. They were all wearing jeans and t-shirt and I was just dressed like a femmie gay boy. All of them got "sir'd"(except me)

People notice. I think if you have very masculine features, no jean or tshirt will save you from being clocked.

I think there's a difference between casual presentation (jeans/t-shirt) and perception as male.

If you have passing privilege, you'll generally have passing privilege no matter what you're wearing, because the face and the physical body underneath the clothing are the two most important indicators of the gender of the person as it's perceived by others.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 07, 2011, 01:44:20 PM
I think there's a difference between casual presentation (jeans/t-shirt) and perception as male.

If you have passing privilege, you'll generally have passing privilege no matter what you're wearing, because the face and the physical body underneath the clothing are the two most important indicators of the gender of the person as it's perceived by others.

My voice and stubble being the exception. I passed as a female as a girl... I am guessing the smaller bone structure. But yeah, what you're born with goes a long way...

My hetero DQ friend told me, "You have a cute face and don't look bad with long hair"...

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 07, 2011, 01:44:20 PM
I think there's a difference between casual presentation (jeans/t-shirt) and perception as male.

If you have passing privilege, you'll generally have passing privilege no matter what you're wearing, because the face and the physical body underneath the clothing are the two most important indicators of the gender of the person as it's perceived by others.

i just know that i think it's pretty cruel to "sir" someone who is visibly transsexual. it's basically just publicly humiliating the person. it is quite possible to avoid addressing someone in a gendered way. i do it all the time regardless of seeing most people looking easy to attribute male or female to. i just look at people and they know i'm talking to them.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 07, 2011, 02:01:01 PM
i just know that i think it's pretty cruel to "sir" someone who is visibly transsexual. it's basically just publicly humiliating the person. it is quite possible to avoid addressing someone in a gendered way. i do it all the time regardless of seeing most people looking easy to attribute male or female to. i just look at people and they know i'm talking to them.

I used to do it all the time before I transitioned. If I saw someone who was clearly biologically male with long hair, no makeup, etc...

I actually argued with one of them once and said, "Yeah, I know you're not a woman as i am not blind". I could have gotten fired for that.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 07, 2011, 02:01:01 PM
i just know that i think it's pretty cruel to "sir" someone who is visibly transsexual. it's basically just publicly humiliating the person. it is quite possible to avoid addressing someone in a gendered way. i do it all the time regardless of seeing most people looking easy to attribute male or female to. i just look at people and they know i'm talking to them.

I would agree with your statement if it were one TG person addressing another.  However, the rest of the world does not have such courtesy and thus I feel we all should prepare for the negative that comes with being TG and transitioning.  Furthermore, many people don't realize they're actually using gender pronouns as we tend to naturally use them based off the image in front of us; thus if someone looks male despite identifying as female (and vise versa), it may unintentionally slip out regardless.  Though, if someone is deliberately using gender pronouns to purposely agitate someone, that would create a problem and I'd be apt to smack them.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 07, 2011, 02:01:01 PM
i just know that i think it's pretty cruel to "sir" someone who is visibly transsexual. it's basically just publicly humiliating the person. it is quite possible to avoid addressing someone in a gendered way. i do it all the time regardless of seeing most people looking easy to attribute male or female to. i just look at people and they know i'm talking to them.

Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 07, 2011, 03:10:18 PM
I would agree with your statement if it were one TG person addressing another.  However, the rest of the world does not have such courtesy and thus I feel we all should prepare for the negative that comes with being TG and transitioning as well.  Furthermore, many people don't realize they're actually using gender pronouns as we tend to naturally use them based off the image in front of us; thus if someone looks male despite being TG (MTF), it may slip out regardless, and vise versa.  Though, if someone is deliberately using gender pronouns to purposely agitate someone, that would create a problem and I'd be apt to smack them.

There's also not a public awareness of the distinction between a crossdresser and a trans* person, so there's that.

I dunno.  If I really couldn't tell, and I had to use gendered language, I'd probably ask their preferred gender pronoun.  We have non-binary people around here, so there's precedent for someone presenting as substantially androgynous to ask.

Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 07, 2011, 03:10:18 PM
I would agree with your statement if it were one TG person addressing another.  However, the rest of the world does not have such courtesy and thus I feel we all should prepare for the negative that comes with being TG and transitioning.  Furthermore, many people don't realize they're actually using gender pronouns as we tend to naturally use them based off the image in front of us; thus if someone looks male despite identifying as female (and vise versa), it may unintentionally slip out regardless.  Though, if someone is deliberately using gender pronouns to purposely agitate someone, that would create a problem and I'd be apt to smack them.

i was speaking in the context of someone who would have an unclear gender presentation. some people just starting out in their transition don't pass as well as others even though they dress in the clothing of the gender they are trying to transition into. there is that period in many transsexuals life where they are in an in between looking state, and going out in public can be hell just because of how society judges people who are transsexual. just visibly being that makes it very hard especially when that's their only hope of living in peace. anyway, i agree with the doing it on purpose bit. i think if someone has to make an effort to make anothers person miserable, they are pretty low life.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 07, 2011, 04:42:08 PM
i was speaking in the context of someone who would have an unclear gender presentation. some people just starting out in their transition don't pass as well as others even though they dress in the clothing of the gender they are trying to transition into. there is that period in many transsexuals life where they are in an in between looking state, and going out in public can be hell just because of how society judges people who are transsexual. just visibly being that makes it very hard especially when that's their only hope of living in peace. anyway, i agree with the doing it on purpose bit. i think if someone has to make an effort to make anothers person miserable, they are pretty low life.

No worries, I agree with you.  In the case of confusion, I'd go with what Wonderdyke stated...

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 07, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
If I really couldn't tell, and I had to use gendered language, I'd probably ask their preferred gender pronoun.  We have non-binary people around here, so there's precedent for someone presenting as substantially androgynous to ask.

well, many females tend to dress pretty boyish,
its kinda makes me sad when people thought of me as female even when all my clothes been male,
but yeah most boyish clothes can goes for women as well without being questionated, there are few diffrence ex how the shape are and so but in general its pretty simular.
--
being transexual isnt about the clothing, if I dress up as a women then I still feel as I do now, as a guy in a dress,
but the world dosent always understand, they need to try it for themself but many are to scared of that.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 07, 2011, 02:09:11 AM
Because clothing shouldn't be inherently gendered and you should be able to wear whatever you want and not have the legitimacy of your gender questioned?

I got rid of almost all of my male clothing, and now I'm sort of regretting having done so, since there are pieces I find I miss.

Adam chose first big enough fig leaf he saw while Eve looked for pretty ones.
Genderless clothing was fine in 1970s Frisco or 1980 China but today thinsg have moved on a bit and the genderless crap just annoys me.
You contradict yourself too.
Are there places or situations that need you to wear obviously male clothes?

That is a brilliant garden of eden story :p

"And they saw their nakedness and felt shame and Adam did garb himself with a leaf from the Fig Tree and then after 4 hours walking though the garden and trying different foliage colour combinations Eve returned to the original fig tree and garbed herself aswell."

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 12, 2011, 04:54:11 AM
Adam chose first big enough fig leaf he saw while Eve looked for pretty ones.
Genderless clothing was fine in 1970s Frisco or 1980 China but today thinsg have moved on a bit and the genderless crap just annoys me.
You contradict yourself too.
Are there places or situations that need you to wear obviously male clothes?

It's not that I need to wear it, it's that I like wearing it and I shouldn't be judged for wearing guys' clothing, since it doesn't make me any less female.