Kia Ora Jacelyn,

Remember, people tend to fear what they don't understand...

Your debate with Minar is an interesting one in that it would seem you're both holding two 'separate' conversations on different plains=levels of understanding ...And never the two shall meet...

And even though I can see where you're coming from through your detachment [in a Buddhist sense], sadly for many here this tends to be a little too deep at times...

In a sense what you both say is the 'truth' according to your understanding....

And as for my 'truth'... "It's all in the mind of the beholder" [even the answer to the original question]...

Metta Zenda

I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari Kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!

Quote from: Zenda on November 08, 2011, 01:24:07 PM
Kia Ora

What is Kia ora and why do you keep saying it?

I swear some transwomen are beyond strange. I mean I support you and stuff...But you're a bit on the eccentric side.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 08, 2011, 05:09:46 PM
What is Kia ora and why do you keep saying it?

I swear some transwomen are beyond strange. I mean I support you and stuff...But you're a bit on the eccentric side.

I think it's a Kiwi thing.  I think it's sort of cute.

As for being strange, that's hardly exclusive to trans* women.

Quote from: Zenda on November 08, 2011, 01:24:07 PM
And even though I can see where you're coming from through your detachment [in a Buddhist sense], sadly for many here this tends to be a little too deep at times...

At first I thought it is enough just to describe common sense about what male and female differences should be, this is where I found out there are several individuals here strongly oppose to such common, conventional knowledge, in favour of the questionable statistical data that is limited to times and geographical regions, in addition to the questionable basis behind these method, that is where I gave up that common sense approach, and bring up the core approach to ascertaining truth. We are at a point of discussing such method here, the point is that an inferior, provisional method has to submit to a method that bear universal significance (for example bearing the similar cause and effect component of hard science).

So far we are at a consensus that gender science is not a hard science, this pretty much invalidate what they have, they are now left with nothing, except mere desire to argue pre-defined definitions, and the only way they have a point is by being rigid to such definitions and their common associations. But the latter would only make them appear sensible to the people sharing similar rigidity, in term of the method, it is purely wrong as it won't qualify the cause and effect component of hard science.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 08, 2011, 05:09:46 PM
What is Kia ora and why do you keep saying it?

I swear some transwomen are beyond strange. I mean I support you and stuff...But you're a bit on the eccentric side.

Pot, meet kettle.  You're a bit eccentric too.

Anyway, here's a post she made explaining the terms a while back.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,102771.0.html

Quote from: Jacelyn on November 08, 2011, 06:11:14 PM
At first I thought it is enough just to describe common sense about what male and female differences should be, this is where I found out there are several individuals here strongly oppose to such common, conventional knowledge, in favour of the questionable statistical data that is limited to times and geographical regions, in addition to the questionable basis behind these method, that is where I gave up that common sense approach, and bring up the core approach to ascertaining truth. We are at a point of discussing such method here, the point is that an inferior, provisional method has to submit to a method that bear universal significance (for example bearing the similar cause and effect component of hard science).

So far we are at a consensus that gender science is not a hard science, this pretty much invalidate what they have, they are now left with nothing, except mere desire to argue pre-defined definitions, and the only way they have a point is by being rigid to such definitions and their common associations. But the latter would only make them appear sensible to the people sharing similar rigidity, in term of the method, it is purely wrong as it won't qualify the cause and effect component of hard science.

I know you're all for validity of individual opinions, but you can't call your own beliefs "common, conventional knowledge" simply because you say so.  That's flatly not true.  (In addition, "common knowledge" in the eyes of most people is going to boil down to a bunch of cissexist, misogynistic, heteronormative pop psychology hash that is useless in the first place.) Also, if you're trying to claim that social (as opposed to 'hard') sciences can't use objective data to quantify truths about the world, I suggest you read a psychology or linguistics journal.

We haven't even really gotten into the concept of gender as performance or as social construction, which totally discredits this "common, conventional knowledge" which is, in reality, none of the three.

350th post.
wut wut.

Quote from: Jacelyn on November 08, 2011, 06:11:14 PM

So far we are at a consensus that gender science is not a hard science, this pretty much invalidate what they have, they are now left with nothing, except mere desire to argue pre-defined definitions, and the only way they have a point is by being rigid to such definitions and their common associations. But the latter would only make them appear sensible to the people sharing similar rigidity, in term of the method, it is purely wrong as it won't qualify the cause and effect component of hard science.

For people who don't want the world to judge them, they sure come up with a lot of terms for what they are. I don't really care what I am called... I just live my life. Pontificating on my identity all day long is a huge waste of time and there are better ways to make friends than that.

I mean this entire board is just self indulgent thoughts on people's identity. Another reason I am wary of adding trans people on fb... I can't read post after post about gender/sexuality and srs/no srs. I am who I am...Not what I am.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 08, 2011, 06:47:25 PM
I know you're all for validity of individual opinions, but you can't call your own beliefs "common, conventional knowledge" simply because you say so.  That's flatly not true.  (In addition, "common knowledge" in the eyes of most people is going to boil down to a bunch of cissexist, misogynistic, heteronormative pop psychology hash that is useless in the first place.) Also, if you're trying to claim that social (as opposed to 'hard') sciences can't use objective data to quantify truths about the world, I suggest you read a psychology or linguistics journal.

We haven't even really gotten into the concept of gender as performance or as social construction, which totally discredits this "common, conventional knowledge" which is, in reality, none of the three.

It is what I perceived to be a common knowledge based on my own experience in a country that does not recognize transgender, and homosexuality is a crime that can be liable for imprisonment for decades in prison. This common sense if not accepted, and if being opposed,  then as in this case,  I'm forced to gave up ascertaining truth based on the basis of a common sense as it is not universal. But this common sense of mine is accepted as such, not solely because it is the common pettern of perception of the people here, but that I myself have examine my own perception, and understand the cause and effect component of its significance.

In other words, to argue to rationale behind what I have accepted as the standard distinction of the male and female binary, we have to focus on the core method of philosophy which is outside of common sense and conventional knowledge, even what you considered as valid objective data in psychology or linguistics journal.

A question: I've noted you have a very high number of smites on your avatar, where are they now, can you explained?

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 08, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
I mean this entire board is just self indulgent thoughts on people's identity. Another reason I am wary of adding trans people on fb... I can't read post after post about gender/sexuality and srs/no srs. I am who I am...Not what I am.

I agreed, I won't even identify myself as transgender but just female on my fb account

Quote from: Jacelyn on November 08, 2011, 07:26:42 PM
I agreed, I won't even identify myself as transgender but just female on my fb account

+1

Same here. It helps to not "I'M TRANS...I'M TRANS" every status. You know, people actually see you as a woman more when you don't rationalize it.

But then there's those who don't have that option and you'll find that a lot of their lists are nothing but transwomen in the same boat.

About half my friends on FB are trans or queer of some flavor but I try and moderate my coments and not talk about trans stuff.

Although I do not make it secret I support LGBT issues and causes.

Quote from: cynthialee on November 08, 2011, 08:08:13 PM

Although I do not make it secret I support LGBT issues and causes.

Stuff you'll never see on my fb page...besides gay men I'd like to bone or have them bone me.

I don't even talk about being trans... as I don't care.

Quote from: Jacelyn on November 08, 2011, 07:18:37 PM

It is what I perceived to be a common knowledge based on my own experience in a country that does not recognize transgender, and homosexuality is a crime that can be liable for imprisonment for decades in prison. This common sense if not accepted, and if being opposed,  then as in the case,  I'm forced to gave up ascertaining truth based on the basis of a common sense as it is not universal.

Simply because your country is a tyranny, that does not force anyone to identify differently.

They can take your bodies. They can never take your minds.

How is that common sense? Common sense says that you shouldn't punish someone for something that isn't harming anyone else.
Common sense does not have anything to do with a government's laws. The "ascertaining truth" should be that not everyone else
is like the bigoted officials of your country.

Is it possible, all this knowledge was from an education system funded by your oppressive government? If that is the case, then that
knowledge is rather construed. Nations with oppressive laws also tend to distort, and often re-write, information that is not in line with
their beliefs. In these nations it is common to find people who have been so brainwashed, that they have little to no true education on
the outside world.

Quote from: Morrigan on November 08, 2011, 08:22:17 PM
Simply because your country is a tyranny, that does not force anyone to identify differently.
They can take your bodies. They can never take your minds.

For MTF who have srs, they are not entitle to a change of the gender identity, not even a complete name change, and no amount of appeal in court will change that decision if a judge is strong on the opposition. Thus most MTF will be jobless (or force to work as prostitutes) as they can't hide the identity of being male, and cross dressing is considered an offense punishable for a fine. They does take away from us all the privileges enjoyed by the cis citizens (we have to finance our transition, including educating ourselves on the TS path). Many of us do have to ignore the law but we simply cannot lead a normal life in the prefered gender without worrying about being caught, being ill-treated such as stripped naked and humiliated by the officers. Thus we will be force to wear male clothing in the street even after srs.

Quote
How is that common sense? Common sense says that you shouldn't punish someone for something that isn't harming anyone else.
Common sense does not have anything to do with a government's laws. The "ascertaining truth" should be that not everyone else
is like the bigoted officials of your country.

That's not the common sense I'm refering to, I have nothing against the common consensus here on the gender binary as this match my own subjective perception, except that this Islamic dominated country does not accept the fluidity of gender but hold the idea that gender is a divine decision, as such it is sanctified which should not be tempered by human. This clearly oppose my buddhist philosophy that all phenomena is not due to a supreme creator, but of dependent origination (cause and effect).

Quote
Is it possible, all this knowledge was from an education system funded by your oppressive government? If that is the case, then that
knowledge is rather construed. Nations with oppressive laws also tend to distort, and often re-write, information that is not in line with
their beliefs. In these nations it is common to find people who have been so brainwashed, that they have little to no true education on
the outside world.

You have no idea how powerful and united is Islam when you have the population contained the majority of their members. Unfortunately the race that has the majority of Muslims, their transgenders are also the most oppressed of all other races as they are additionally subject to the Islamic laws. This year, one of our muslim 'sister' die in mental torment after the judge refused her application for a name and gender change on her identity card, since she wish to pursue her studies after her srs, she is only 25.

Jacelyn, Islam is at odds with most of the world. We can agree that many of their "Sharia Laws" are unjust and unsound.

This however, has nothing to do with how you have to think. It's unfortunate, but many people are forced to maintain their
born appearance, despite their inner self. This can be for any number of reasons, and that doesn't stop them from knowing
in their mind what they are.

I think there are some stories of struggles in the TG world, more difficult than immigration.

Quote from: Jacelyn on November 08, 2011, 09:58:35 PM
You have no idea how powerful and united is Islam when you have the population contained the majority of their members.

I've done a good amount of observing Islamic cultures. I do unfortunately know the dangerous things the extremist factions
are capable of. What scares me, is that I continue hear about more and more average citizens sharing these hateful beliefs.

Quote from: Jacelyn on November 08, 2011, 07:18:37 PM

It is what I perceived to be a common knowledge based on my own experience in a country that does not recognize transgender, and homosexuality is a crime that can be liable for imprisonment for decades in prison. This common sense if not accepted, and if being opposed,  then as in this case,  I'm forced to gave up ascertaining truth based on the basis of a common sense as it is not universal. But this common sense of mine is accepted as such, not solely because it is the common pettern of perception of the people here, but that I myself have examine my own perception, and understand the cause and effect component of its significance.

In other words, to argue to rationale behind what I have accepted as the standard distinction of the male and female binary, we have to focus on the core method of philosophy which is outside of common sense and conventional knowledge, even what you considered as valid objective data in psychology or linguistics journal.

A question: I've noted you have a very high number of smites on your avatar, where are they now, can you explained?

I'm sorry that you live in a place where that's the case, and I recognize how that might lead to different socialized conceptions of maleness, femaleness, queerness, and transness.

That doesn't, however, qualify you any more than someone living in a place where such recognition of gender and sexuality non-conformity is more prevalent.  My understanding of issues of gender and sexuality stem from being well-read in the issues, both from sociological, psychological, and biological perspectives.

I don't agree that gender has to be viewed from a philosophical perspective, though I don't reject that it can be used as an interpretation.  I'm just honestly lost as to why you think philosophy validates your beliefs, and also manages to overcome the overwhelming evidence to the contrary based on the sheer existence of gay, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, and lesbian-identifying people and non-binary-identifying people.

An answer: some people believed my conviction that sex is not intrinsic to genitals constituted an offense to their beliefs to the contrary.  I petitioned for their removal because I felt them to be unwarranted; administrators agreed with me and removed them.

Could it be.....have you ever heard of 'trannie ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-s'? Gay men who dress up or even more for the sole purpose to attract 'butch'/'straight' men who are into T's but *not* into (gay)men?

Those gay men/sometimes turned into T's are usually overtly and blatantly sexually behaving.

I personally know one such a (very middle aged) person who's not on HRT but even had breastimplants to be more 'succesful' in attracting and processing 'straight' men in industrial quantities. Not pay but for 'fun'.

Of course she calls  herself '->-bleeped-<-' ,the 'straight' men's attention grabbing word ;-)

We're not yet educated on this very specific subject, so here's a good read. Tragic but funny.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-/

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 09, 2011, 12:52:46 AM
That doesn't, however, qualify you any more than someone living in a place where such recognition of gender and sexuality non-conformity is more prevalent.  My understanding of issues of gender and sexuality stem from being well-read in the issues, both from sociological, psychological, and biological perspectives.

I didn't depend on that to qualify myself but to demonstrate to you what is common sense differed in geography, culture and political environment. You mentioned sociological, psychological, and biological perspectives, but only the last have a scientific validity.  The other is not exact science due to their method which is lacking of definitive determination of the component of cause and effect.

Quote
I don't agree that gender has to be viewed from a philosophical perspective, though I don't reject that it can be used as an interpretation.  I'm just honestly lost as to why you think philosophy validates your beliefs, and also manages to overcome the overwhelming evidence to the contrary based on the sheer existence of gay, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, and lesbian-identifying people and non-binary-identifying people.

Simple answer: philosophy (of buddhism) is the actual science of perception (element of consciousness), it deal with real cause and effect components (mental factors) that can be validly determined with degree of consistent precision. Instead of having to depend on statistical data from various survey which are not cause and effect dependence, but dependence on various individual opinions. Individual who is bias due to their own psychological conditions simply clinged to their own version of the opinion, the multitude of numbers does not mean the data is more accurate, it simply mean in a region, people share a similar view. But the mass is not without flaw, for example it is due to mass influence that human committed historical crimes against humanity.