Quote from: Dana_H on November 15, 2011, 10:35:45 PM
Heck, consider Ann Coulter.  Rumors of her being MTF just refuse to die even though there is plenty of documented evidence that she really is cis.  I think the things that people key into when flagging her as trans are her prominent adam's apple, somewhat deep voice, sharp jaw, and her rather masculine level of verbal aggression when speaking publicly.  My point being, anyone who claims to have infallible "trans-dar" is wrong. Anyone transperson who thinks he/she always passes is wrong. Any cisperson who thinks he/she could never be mistaken for being trans is wrong. Anyone can be clocked or misgendered and anyone can unknowingly misgender someone else.

Plus, you can never really know what someone else is thinking about you...if they are even thinking of you at all.  That person who refused to meet your stare may just not be comfortable making eye contact with strangers. That person who just smiled at you in passing could be inwardly greatly shocked at the "obvious transperson", yet trying to act polite.  That person who just glared at you may have been thinking about their bad day at the office and not have even noticed you standing there. That person who just rudely shoved past you in the store may have actually pegged you as a "normal" cis and was simply in a hurry and not watching their manners.  You just don't know.  People's thoughts and actions often don't match.

My standard of success, when it comes to passing, is being able to go about my business without being assaulted, openly mocked/disrespected, or discriminated against. If people are clocking me but continue to at least treat me with basic respect and human dignity, that's good enough for me. But then, I'm not really "out" yet, so maybe my feelings on the matter will change when actually faced with the reality of RLE.  I recognize that possibility.

If you are usually being accepted and respected, whether you are actually passing or not, consider yourself lucky and treat yourself to a smile.  It's really the best any of us (trans or cis) can reasonably expect in an imperfect world.

+1

I think transpeople see each other through rose colored glasses.... I tend to be a bit more objective.


This girl does vids on youtube, she think she passes 100% and that "no one can tell". Listen, she's beautiful and presents herself as a babe(like me) but one look at her face reveals that she was born an XY.

Do people respect her? You bet.
Do guys love her? You bet.
Can some people tell she's not a genetic female? You bet.

I work in cosmetics. I see male and female faces all day. I've turned men into women and women into men. It is very hard for me to look at someone and tell them, "you pass" because passing requires so much work.

But I am upfront about everything with everyone.

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:09:36 PM
I think transpeople see each other through rose colored glasses.... I tend to be a bit more objective.


This girl does vids on youtube, she think she passes 100% and that "no one can tell". Listen, she's beautiful and presents herself as a babe(like me) but one look at her face reveals that she was born an XY.

Do people respect her? You bet.
Do guys love her? You bet.
Can some people tell she's not a genetic female? You bet.

I work in cosmetics. I see male and female faces all day. I've turned men into women and women into men. It is very hard for me to look at someone and tell them, "you pass" because passing requires so much work.

But I am upfront about everything with everyone.

She resembles Demi Lovato...though I know that wasn't the point...carry on.

Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 15, 2011, 11:14:43 PM
She resembles Demi Lovato...though I know that wasn't the point...carry on.

Demi Lavato doesn't have a large skull, supraorbital ridges, and wide jaw.

She reminds me of the Tmobile girl. And Elle I wish you werent across the country form me, I'd love to have you do my makeup

I'd like to comment that passing with cispeople, passing with transpeople, and passing with Mahsa are entirely different categories of passing.

Really old people are my favorite. I almost always pass with them, and they're so nice.

Quote from: meatgrinder on November 15, 2011, 11:20:58 PM
She reminds me of the Tmobile girl. And Elle I wish you werent across the country form me, I'd love to have you do my makeup

Yeah.

Btw members of SUSANS, I sure clarify that when I said "passing" I meant as an ULTRA FEMININE FEMALE. It's hard to pull off and requires a lot of work... Same for any cisfemale. So much is expected of them.

I mean, um, passing with Elle. She is quite the expert.

Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:26:41 PM
passing with Mahsa are entirely different categories of passing.

Not really. I think a lot of it has to do with being a former catty male with straight guy eyes.

Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:28:02 PM
I mean, um, passing with Elle. She is quite the expert.

That is a complete lie.

I am convinced regardless of who it is, cis or trans, if you stare at someone long enough you will find something that "does not pass".  Therefore I say, within the first few seconds of looking at someone if you did not find something odd and even then if it does not give the inclination to believe they are of the opposite gender right away, then the person passes.

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:28:31 PM
Not really. I think a lot of it has to do with being a former catty male with straight guy eyes.

Well I still think you can clock people a lot better than I can, and I know I can clock people a lot better than most cispeople, so it definitely takes different levels of passability for you, me, and the average person.

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:28:52 PM
That is a complete lie.

Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 15, 2011, 11:32:58 PM
I am convinced regardless of who it is, cis or trans, if you stare at someone long enough you will find something that "does not pass".  Therefore I say, within the first few seconds of looking at someone if you did not find something odd and even then if it does not give the inclination to believe they are of the opposite gender right away, then the person passes.

I once went up to this girl in ross and said, "You have a big skull, are you trans?" she got pissed off at me.

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:37:21 PM
I once went up to this girl in ross and said, "You have a big skull, are you trans?" she got pissed off at me.

Lol that is awesome. And terrible. Was she?

Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:36:50 PM
Well I still think you can clock people a lot better than I can, and I know I can clock people a lot better than most cispeople, so it definitely takes different levels of passability for you, me, and the average person.

I just trust the word of the 100% straight male. Since they are the ones who buy me lunch and want me to send them my photos of me. Honestly, men are more analytical. But again, it's opinions and does it really matter?

Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:39:12 PM
Lol that is awesome. And terrible. Was she?

Some people don't admit it.

She said no. But I am pretty sure she was.

She was wearing sunglasses inside too... It was on Market/5th in SF.

I am bi-gendered, so "passing" gender isn't something that concerns me, but I am a person of Goddess-sized proportions, so I have a whole other kind of anxiety about discrimination/insult to worry about. I've been working with The Four Agreements (which is an AWESOME book that's helped me a lot!), particularly the agreement about not taking anything personally. I talked myself through it and realized that anyone who worked so hard to try to bring me down was probably pretty insecure inside. But when thinking about that doesn't work so good, I just pull out this little gem:

You stop worrying about what other people think about you when you realize how little they do.
-- Mark Twain

~~E

Quote from: Ellie Ryan on November 15, 2011, 11:59:17 PM


You stop worrying about what other people think about you when you realize how little they do.
-- Mark Twain

Everyone sees me through my own eyes. I literally think people are as analytical as me... But being on this board, there are sure a lot of beautiful transmen and women there...that isn't analytical.

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 16, 2011, 12:02:09 AM
Everyone sees me through my own eyes. I literally think people are as analytical as me... But being on this board, there are sure a lot of beautiful transmen and women there...that isn't analytical.

I have high-functioning autism, so this is something to which I can relate. I spend an awful lot of my time in the practice of epistemology (which is sort of like thinking about thinking and wondering what and how others think). It's really hard for me to imagine someone with a quiet mind. My wife, Dana_H on these boards (who made the post about Ann Coulter on this very thread!), has an extremely still mind. Sometimes I'm jealous. Sometimes I'm baffled. But I almost never relate. Our marriage is the space where a very still pond meets a wild, babbling brook.

~~E

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:09:36 PM
I think transpeople see each other through rose colored glasses.... I tend to be a bit more objective.


This girl does vids on youtube, she think she passes 100% and that "no one can tell". Listen, she's beautiful and presents herself as a babe(like me) but one look at her face reveals that she was born an XY.

Do people respect her? You bet.
Do guys love her? You bet.
Can some people tell she's not a genetic female? You bet.

I work in cosmetics. I see male and female faces all day. I've turned men into women and women into men. It is very hard for me to look at someone and tell them, "you pass" because passing requires so much work.

But I am upfront about everything with everyone.

You already knew this girl was trans, didn't you? Sorry, but there is nothing 'wrong' (as in vestiges of T poisoning) with her face. I bet you 'clock' ciswomen all day long.