Soooo I have a question. What do you think about presence of trans guys in female-only spaces? By female-only I mean closed spaces that are set aside for female-identified individuals that don't usually welcome men.

I'm one of the co-facilitators of this student organization at my uni. It's a club for women to get together and hang out, support each other, share experiences, etc. I do really enjoy the people in the group -- they're all awesome, I have fun -- but I'm becoming increasingly conflicted about my participation. I'm not out and I'm still exploring my gender identity, but I am becoming more sure that I'm ftm. I want to tell the group that I'm questioning, because I'm 99% sure that everyone would be cool about it.

But at the same time, outing myself just might mean I can't be in the org anymore. :/ I'd miss it.

Would it be wrong for me to continue taking part in this club as a leader when I don't wholly identify as female? I worry that I'm intruding in on a space that's not meant for me, and I wonder if it would be problematic for a male-identified individual to take on a leadership role in a club that's meant for women.

What do y'all think?

im against ftms being in female  clubs or whatever just because then people dont take you seriously as male.

I'm not for trans people who identify as male and men being in women's spaces. I often feel that most women's spaces are trans misogynistic so I wouldn't go anyways just out of support for trans women.

sorry to post here....i know it looks weird me posting in this subject. But, I know at some women only functions, FTM gets scorned if they go to some of these functions.

"Womyn born Womyn" is one of them. They look at transguys in disgust for abandoning their femininity and by "confirming to the male chauvinist agenda by trying to be one." In my opinion, they are pretty much a "girl's only KKK club."

But for the more sane women only clubs, I can only give you a perspective from my side of it. If I were to attend a men's only club or group as myself, I would feel that I was holding back and that I was not fully ready to be a woman.

Now, this is just me and it doesn't mean it is this way across the board. My way isn't the only right way either. But, I would feel I wasn't letting go of being male if I went to them....much less led one.

You are in a situation too. If you disengage from the group then they will start asking questions as to why you would leave it. Was it something they did? Do you no longer believe in the mission statement? Do you now find the group morally objectionable? These are all questions some of the women will ask themselves (or possibly others). Since they do not know you are FTM then you leaving will not make a whole lot of sense.

On the other hand, based on your post, you being there is now starting to conflict with your own personal philosophies. It is a dilemma.

But if you do not identify as a female then you need to ask yourself why are you really there? Is it to hang out or to accomplish or meet the goals and mission statement of the group?

Quote from: Nygeel on November 22, 2011, 11:37:53 AMI often feel that most women's spaces are trans misogynistic so I wouldn't go anyways just out of support for trans women.

Yeah, that's definitely the case sometimes. But I feel like the org I'm in is inclusive, we have trans women members. I wouldn't want to take part in a group that excludes trans women, that's f***ed up.

anibioman -- yeah, that was my worry. Like no one will believe me because I'm in this org. :/


Edited for language

Hey Annah! I don't think it's weird for you to post here at all. Your comment was actually really helpful, it made me think.

Ugh, I hate Womyn Born Womyn groups. They're so gross and transphobic. I probably should have clarified in the original post that the org I'm in is definitely not that kind of group, lol. It's super informal and diverse.

Quote from: Annah on November 22, 2011, 11:42:39 AM
But if you do not identify as a female then you need to ask yourself why are you really there? Is it to hang out or to accomplish or meet the goals and mission statement of the group?

Hmmm. When I joined I knew subconsciously that I didn't quite fit into the 'female' label, but I never connected that with actually being trans until recently. So I joined because I like hanging out with women (because they're awesome) and I wanted to make friends.

I think... I'm just scared. You said that if you were in a men's group it would make you feel like you weren't ready to be a woman. I think maybe I'm not ready to admit to being a trans guy and deal with all that entails.

I don't know if I want to join the men's org. The thought makes me nervous. And if I can't be with the guys and I can't be with the girls, where the hell do I go?

I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine recently.

My personal opinion is that women's spaces are for women. It is a place for them to go and feel safe. Having a FTM or a male-identifying person there might make the ladies feel like they were no longer safe or that they had lost something. Personally I don't feel that going to women's group would harm my own identity, but I feel like it might harm theirs. In the end, I think it is a respect thing. I respect women enough to understand that they need their own spaces, just like men do. I was socialized as a woman (a southern belle one even) but because of how I identify, I feel that my presence would be harmful to them.

That being said, if you want to pull out of the group, I think you should be open with them. (If you feel safe, of course) If you are concerned about your own identity and you are questioning, I don't see the problem with being active in the org until you are sure, as long as you can be active and further the group's mission.

As for where do you go: a transfriendly group. GLBTQ groups are usually pretty accepting. I would join the one my Uni, but I am not going to until my husband quits his job (he is really active in campus life). Or you could join something that is not specfic to a certain group. Think honors groups for certain majors. I am in Phi Alpha Theta, the history club, and it is awesome.

Not everything in your life has to center around your gender identity. But, this is all my opinion and nothing else. Like Annah, I feel like if I jumped into a women's group I would be running away from myself a little.

For me, if you have not yet transitioned, and are perceived by people in general as F, I have no problem with it. 

OTOH, once you start to transition, I would not recommend going any more.  That early transition phase is very odd.  Once you have transitioned, you would probably feel more comfortable in men's only spaces.  I know I  was.  I still felt like a noob, but went anyway.

I wouldn't 'come out' in the group and then continue to hang out there.  I would wait to come out when I wanted everyone to start using my male name and pronouns, and I would no longer fit in a women's space.  But that's me.


Jay

Ayden, you pretty much hit it the nail on the head. I might be okay with it, but sometimes women just need spaces without dudes, and I do understand that.

I think I'll tell everyone I'm questioning, but stuck around until the group is solid enough to last without me. Because it's pretty small atm, and I'm worried my co-facilitator won't be able to do it all by herself. :/ I doubt I'll be transitioning any time soon, but I'll be giving them a heads up.

Man, I've been worrying about this for ages, it's so nice to be able to talk about it. you're all amazing. 

I think that if you are not out yet and not presenting as male, or asking others to treat you as male, then its fine to be in women spaces

but if you are presenting male, then its just inappropriate and hypocritical, and if you do then you shouldn't expect anyone to treat you as male.

Personally, I don't think where you are in transition really matters. At the point that you no longer identify as a woman (whether you identify as a man, or genderqueer, or something else entirely) you no longer belong in that space. If I were in this position, I would find somebody else to co-facilitate and get out.

On another note, I've never actually come across 'womyn born womyn' spaces that didn't let trans guys in, which has always confused me. I've only ever seen WBW used to keep out trans women. Even MichFest let trans men in. (For the record, I think this is really messed up. The trans guys need to get out, and the trans women need to be let in.  )

Quote from: Brendon on November 22, 2011, 01:59:20 PM
Personally, I don't think where you are in transition really matters. At the point that you no longer identify as a woman (whether you identify as a man, or genderqueer, or something else entirely) you no longer belong in that space. If I were in this position, I would find somebody else to co-facilitate and get out.

ahhhh I know you're right. It's a space for those who identify as female, presentation isn't really the point. We have a girl who's male-presenting because she's not out as trans to most people yet, but her appearance doesn't matter-- how she self-identifies matters. And even though right now I'm presenting as female (for the most part, sometimes I get read as male), if I don't identify as a woman I shouldn't be in the group.

I just need to work up the nerve to tell everyone... :/

A few months ago, my mother dragged me to one of those creepy 'women-only' sex toy parties.
Maybe this is a stretch as far as relating to the topic, but I felt very oogey, and I don't approve of it.
I felt awkward being there, because my 'pass' to get in happened to be the fact that I have the same parts that the women there had.
I just felt wrong being there because they didn't know I'm an FtM.

But I suppose that it depends on whether or not you pass,
Like using the male's bathroom instead of the women's.

Quote from: cornhobble on November 22, 2011, 01:32:20 PMI think I'll tell everyone I'm questioning,

Are you sure you want to do that? It might actually affect the group's ability to survive.

I agree with what a lot of people have said. My take is that if you're questioning, maybe you still partly ID as female, in some way. Certainly you have a history of living as a girl. If you're not presenting as male, changing your name, and using male pronouns, then maybe you can continue to attend while you sort things out and perhaps investigate other social options, like an LGBTQ group.

People who are "questioning" often decide that they're not fully male-identified or that they don't want to physically transition. Or they realize that they're genderqueer or androgyne. If you're not sure yet, then tread carefully, and give yourself the benefit of the doubt. And, as I said, if you need to do more internal exploration until you are sure of your identity, do the women in the group need to know yet? How will this knowledge of your questioning affect you, them, and the group as a whole?

If you are sure you're FTM or male-identified and will begin some kind of transition process--even if it's "just" social transition--then maybe you should start notifying people and be prepared to get out of there pretty quickly.

In my opinion, we don't really belong in female spaces, because we aren't women. But that's my opinion only, and I guess from many angles we do still belong, it would depend a lot on the group.

If it's a group for helping women get by in life, then it could be argued that since we've had to grow up in the same society being treated as female, and we have still had to face all of the same opposition and etc, and I think in that situation we should be welcome. However if it's just a group for women who want to chill together with no guys around, I think we probably really shouldn't be there.

I think female only spaces should be female only spaces. If you don't ID as a female then you shouldn't be there. But since your confused I think you should only act when you got it sorted out. Once you start transitioning, social or medically, I think you should leave. I wouldn't come out to anyone. I don't see how it's anyone's business. This is also something that the majority of the world reacts negativity too.

Quote from: GentlemanRDP on November 22, 2011, 02:47:54 PM
A few months ago, my mother dragged me to one of those creepy 'women-only' sex toy parties.
Maybe this is a stretch as far as relating to the topic, but I felt very oogey, and I don't approve of it.
I felt awkward being there, because my 'pass' to get in happened to be the fact that I have the same parts that the women there had.
I just felt wrong being there because they didn't know I'm an FtM.

But I suppose that it depends on whether or not you pass,
Like using the male's bathroom instead of the women's.

Awkward on so many levels.
I don't think I could have survived, glad you did.

I feel very uncomfortable in women-only spaces.

However, as a single parent, and indeed a "mother" as often as a "father," I often end up in situations that normally would be at least informally women-only.

Lol I don't know what I thought I might say about that. Nevermind. Maybe give yourself some leeway because these guys are your friends, but for your own wholeness and self-image you might need to disengage soon.

I'd say it's about time to switch over from these types of "women's" spaces to "men's" spaces when you do the same with bathrooms - and I don't mean random public ones, I mean ones at your work or school where people you know will see you going in them. 

If they won't let you in men's groups yet, it's kind of rude to evict you from women's groups, unless it's somewhere they specifically have a nonbinary/other group.

Clearly, you feel some sense of community with them otherwise you wouldn't be there in the first place, or would be leaving on the grounds of it just doesn't interest you.  Sure, maybe *you* feel like a spy, but until you're at the point where men's groups would let you in, they're not going to think you are.  As you've essentially been sort of "spying" amongst groups of females for however many years you've been alive anyways, if they still think you're a woman, at what point are you "harming" their identity?  Were you doing so when Becky invited all the girls in her class to her birthday party in kindergarten and you went, too?  When you were involved in some sort of feminist group in high school before you'd even considered the possibility of being trans?  You've still got the same male brain you've always had.

Quote from: Brian on November 22, 2011, 11:23:16 AM
Soooo I have a question. What do you think about presence of trans guys in female-only spaces? By female-only I mean closed spaces that are set aside for female-identified individuals that don't usually welcome men.

I'm one of the co-facilitators of this student organization at my uni. It's a club for women to get together and hang out, support each other, share experiences, etc. I do really enjoy the people in the group -- they're all awesome, I have fun -- but I'm becoming increasingly conflicted about my participation. I'm not out and I'm still exploring my gender identity, but I am becoming more sure that I'm ftm. I want to tell the group that I'm questioning, because I'm 99% sure that everyone would be cool about it.

But at the same time, outing myself just might mean I can't be in the org anymore. :/ I'd miss it.

Would it be wrong for me to continue taking part in this club as a leader when I don't wholly identify as female? I worry that I'm intruding in on a space that's not meant for me, and I wonder if it would be problematic for a male-identified individual to take on a leadership role in a club that's meant for women.

What do y'all think?

I dont know if I can compare this

I been in some all girls groups when I where younger, cause when I where a child we had alot of those girlgroups and some of them I where forced to join, and some I joined myself.
however I used to feel kinda bad about it the reason I joined would be because I liked the people or the things they did, but I hated how only girls should be allowed.

the last year I had a girlclub it gots more open so it where mainly for girls but guys where allowed in the room and could get the chance to join if they wanted in some of the things (mostly they didnt)
I didnt join that often, only when they had cakes and then I where kinda "working" like a stylist there.. so I where more like the guys you see in top model styling the girls.. heheh^^

Although I'm always pretty skeptical of male only or female only spaces, I do understand there's probably a reason for certain times. So no, I don't agree with ftms in female only spaces. I don't really understand why an ftm would want to be there anyway, I identify as male and definately wouldn't, it would be way uncomfortable.