Please, I hope this line of questioning isn't taken offensively as it is not meant to be. I am wondering something though....

What if a TS person who is desparate to just be themselves, but feels they are in a position of obligation to never be themselves and never begins any sort of therapy let alone HRT and SRS? What happens when a TS person has reached the point of "almost" and then does nothing? What happens to them emotionally if they remain unchanged even though that is their greatest desire?

I think that's what we call the "transition or die" point.  Hopefully the former rather than the latter will be the option taken.

Melissa

Thanks 4 this thread, think i will pass been i think im in that very possition.

Quote from: Melissa on March 21, 2007, 11:30:39 AM
I think that's what we call the "transition or die" point.  Hopefully the former rather than the latter will be the option taken.

Melissa

Melissa if you would...could you talk about this deeper?

Ok.  I'll talk about it in relation to myself.  I was fortunate in that I started transitioning before I reached this point, but it hit me REALLY hard.  I didn't start feeling any relief until after I went fulltime.  It was literally tearing me up inside and I even had a minor nervous breakdown and had attempted suicide about a month before coming out at my work.  My circumstances were that I couldn't pass well at the time because my hair was still a bit short, I hadn't been on hrt very long, and I had hardly done any facial hair removal because of finances.  I finally figured out ways to get past all of my obstacles and eventually went fulltime last July.  GID (especially if it is VERY strong) is pure hell.  If the person's GID is not so strong they may be able to last much longer than me before getting to that point, but it does eventually seem to get stronger and stronger.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on March 21, 2007, 12:29:55 PM
Ok.  I'll talk about it in relation to myself.  I was fortunate in that I started transitioning before I reached this point, but it hit me REALLY hard.  I didn't start feeling any relief until after I went fulltime.  It was literally tearing me up inside and I even had a minor nervous breakdown and had attempted suicide about a month before coming out at my work.  My circumstances were that I couldn't pass well at the time because my hair was still a bit short, I hadn't been on hrt very long, and I had hardly done any facial hair removal because of finances.  I finally figured out ways to get past all of my obstacles and eventually went fulltime last July.  GID (especially if it is VERY strong) is pure hell.  If the person's GID is not so strong they may be able to last much longer than me before getting to that point, but it does eventually seem to get stronger and stronger.

Melissa

Thank you very very much for sharing your personal experience on this Melissa.

Are there any others who can help me out with this too?

The feelings tend to get stronger as you get older.  In my case the options were Transition or death.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 21, 2007, 02:12:38 PM
The feelings tend to get stronger as you get older.  In my case the options were Transition or death.

Sarah L.

Sarah may I ask at what age those were the 2 options left to you? Melissa? Same question....thanks.

28.  I'm 29 now.

Melissa

Aspects with a lot of emotional power cannot remain hidden. They come out, sometimes in odd ways. Depression, irritability, self-destruction of various types are common. I'm told by a psychologist who specializes in the transgendered that most don't transition fully. Only about half in his clinic go on HRT, and 20% get SRS. I hope that means that the rest come to some sweet-spot, where they can live with themselves, in harmony with our culture. I'm sure it's a mixture of compromise, and some resigned to misery and depression.
Repeating, it can't.. can't remain hidden.
Blessings, Tara

Thanks 4 that Tara
XXX

Togetherwecan this is a fantastic thread and I always love to read what Melisa has to say!

I am very spiritual and do not believe in killing myself.  However if I die trying to reach some goal or objective then I died trying but I did not kill myself. 

I have faced unrelenting depression for decades caused both internally and externally for being different.  When my being a male made me reasonally successful then I could manage the reason for pretending to be a male. 

As I have gotten older almost nothing remains of my reason for pretending to be a male.  My sexually is gone, my strength is gone and my ability to provide has been seriously challenged. 

The reason I am still a male is mainly twofold:
1. I have a great wife and three fantastic children.
2. I feel I will fail and not be able to pass as a female and will be doomed as different.

I have addressed the first issue by asking my wife to leave me.  Her reply was, "Do you love me?"  I replied yes so that she said she would stay.  I catch my wife crying by herself and I ask her why she is crying and she says "You know."  I think she is talking about the depression.  I do not think she knows about this TG stuff because I never shared it with anyone.  (Except for "Do you know Eddie" who was a real person that came to my rescue when I was very young.)  If my wife leaves then my best friend would be gone.

My wife has asked me to go to therapy and I have.  I have gone since I was twenty and have taken every pill combination that the MD's think will work.  Nothing has ever worked except for additive medications which they will not prescribe.

I have never been able to tell any human face-to-face that I have transgender issues.  I am ashamed of it and my mannerisms.  I have not been able to tell even the psychiatrists so that they have to really read between the lines.  The last one got close.

I am now on a train that is moving very fast.  I have read that female hormones do not make you feel better.  I certainly feel better.  I feel like my caged mind has been let out!

If I tell my wife and she asks me to stop I will try to stop.

I felt really good a week ago.  For whatever reason my hormones were in balance and things seemed O.K.  I decided I no longer needed to take female hormones and stopped on my own!  The next day I was fine.  The following day I crashed and could not stop crying.  I still have not stabilized myself.

A few transgendered people have advised me to stay a male if I can figure out how to cope with it.  I agree with them but I am failing.  I feel much happier as a female.  However I am not sure how to be a female.  I learned how to be a male and I unlearned how I naturally expressed myself.  I am not sure how to get back but I am prepared to go alone.

The second item may be more difficult.  I am very strong willed and persistent but extremely sensitive.  I do not see how I can ever pass as a female.  I will still be an outcast.  This means I can lose my wife and be perceived as a man looking like a woman.

How will my son handle this?  How will my children handle this?

I was hoping maybe I can dampen my maleness and continue to let people think I am a male.

I go to bed with a shirt and my wife does not reach under the shirt.  Maybe she knows more than I think she knows?

In my analogy "The Three Hundred Spartans" the Spartans died in the end.  The anology can be interpreted to mean the death of "maleness" or the death of a "person".

Maybe it would be nice to explore the gender issue by step.  If each step seems right then go to the next step.

I know two years of hormones for me does not yet feel like too much.  However I read that one year is about the top limit.

I also know that I feel the changes have been too slow and non-existent.  Yet I have stretch marks on places I did not know get stretch marks until today!

If you can talk to your partner then you are ahead of other couples.  If you want to stay with your spouse you are ahead of even more of the couples.  If you can figure out how to make both of you happy then you go to the head of the class.

I actually hope I can stop because that is the logical choice but at the same time I am so excited to be me! 

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 21, 2007, 11:13:25 AM
What happens when a TS person has reached the point of "almost" and then does nothing? What happens to them emotionally if they remain unchanged even though that is their greatest desire?

Misery. Frustration. Anger. Loneliness.

Eventually, odds are the GID will win. It just takes time.

It's my opinion that a TS cannot *bear* the thoughts of NEVER transitioning. Oh sure, they'll SAY they'll never do it, but secretly they're thinking, "Not yet. But someday. Somehow things will be different and I'll be able to do it."

I think for those of us who grew up with this, it often takes the threat of old age to finally truly threaten that hope. You get into your 30s-50s, and suddenly realize that God isn't going to save you, no miracle is coming your way, and unless you DO something, you're going to die without ever having lived. It becomes a FACT, rather than just a concern.

Then begins the long process of justification, the mind trying to find SOME way to allow it. I'd never, I can't, I shouldn't, I mustn't, I would, I might, I am.

When I first started looking for solutions nearly a decade ago, I joined a group dedicated to supporting people who had decided to NOT transition, ever. I SO badly wanted to find a way to avoid this at the time, some way to cope and get by. And although the people there were as beautiful as the people here, the overhanging misery, the hurting and pain... it was difficult to ignore. I saw the writing on my wall there. And yet I resisted for a few more years - one of the biggest mistakes I've made.

I wish I could offer you more optimism, but in my years of researching this for myself, I just never found it. Sooner or later, the pain overwhelms all sense of reason and fear.

Kate

Quote from: Kate on March 21, 2007, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 21, 2007, 11:13:25 AM
What happens when a TS person has reached the point of "almost" and then does nothing? What happens to them emotionally if they remain unchanged even though that is their greatest desire?

Misery. Frustration. Anger. Loneliness.

Eventually, odds are the GID will win. It just takes time.

It's my opinion that a TS cannot *bear* the thoughts of NEVER transitioning. Oh sure, they'll SAY they'll never do it, but secretly they're thinking, "Not yet. But someday. Somehow things will be different and I'll be able to do it."

I think for those of us who grew up with this, it often takes the threat of old age to finally truly threaten that hope. You get into your 30s-50s, and suddenly realize that God isn't going to save you, no miracle is coming your way, and unless you DO something, you're going to die without ever having lived. It becomes a FACT, rather than just a concern.

Then begins the long process of justification, the mind trying to find SOME way to allow it. I'd never, I can't, I shouldn't, I mustn't, I would, I might, I am.

When I first started looking for solutions nearly a decade ago, I joined a group dedicated to supporting people who had decided to NOT transition, ever. I SO badly wanted to find a way to avoid this at the time, some way to cope and get by. And although the people there were as beautiful as the people here, the overhanging misery, the hurting and pain... it was difficult to ignore. I saw the writing on my wall there. And yet I resisted for a few more years - one of the biggest mistakes I've made.

I wish I could offer you more optimism, but in my years of researching this for myself, I just never found it. Sooner or later, the pain overwhelms all sense of reason and fear.

Kate

Actually Kate, that was fantastic and since Brooke respects your postings as she has said in threads I am sure she will "get it" which is the point of this thread for me.

Brooke is in turmoil right now. This injury and the resulting routine surgery combined with business changes and the addition of coming out to me and my acceptance has her in a mind spin. I am sure there are countless other things too.
Anyhow...I fear she will wait so long to begin that it will only hurt her more in the end.

Wendy,

Maybe it's not my place, but you really need to do something more than you are doing. It sounds like both you and your wife are miserable. Children are very malleable when they are young, they cope so much better than anybody thinks that they can, they cope better than adults do most of the time.  You need to tell your psychiatrist. You need to tell your wife.  What good is this doing for either of you right now? You're miserable because you can't be a complete person, you're wife is miserable because you are miserable and she doesn't know why but I'll bet she thinks you're hiding something big from her and is feeling awfully rejected from that.  The longer this continues the more likely she will leave you.  True, she may leave you anyway, but sometimes things must be how they will be. She can't force you to happy the way you are and you can't force her to be happy the way you will become.

You are the author of your own happiness...nobody else can do this for you.

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 21, 2007, 03:14:57 PM
I am sure she will "get it" which is the point of this thread for me.

Actually though, I should be more careful to not project my experience onto her. Everyone does go through this a bit differently, so everyone has to find their best solution to all this.

QuoteBrooke is in turmoil right now. This injury and the resulting routine surgery combined with business changes and the addition of coming out to me and my acceptance has her in a mind spin.

Wow, the poor girl... hmmmm, ya know, I was gonna mention that it often takes some catalyst, some scare to kick us over the wall. For me, it was the combination of my father-in-law's passing, and realizing I wasn't exactly getting any younger myself. As turbulent and confusing as things are right now, she might find that these events actually bring her some newfound perspective and clarity.

Kate

Quote from: Wendy on March 21, 2007, 02:50:30 PM
Togetherwecan this is a fantastic thread and I always love to read what Melisa has to say!

I am very spiritual and do not believe in killing myself.  However if I die trying to reach some goal or objective then I died trying but I did not kill myself. 

I have faced unrelenting depression for decades caused both internally and externally for being different.  When my being a male made me reasonally successful then I could manage the reason for pretending to be a male. 

As I have gotten older almost nothing remains of my reason for pretending to be a male.  My sexually is gone, my strength is gone and my ability to provide has been seriously challenged. 

The reason I am still a male is mainly twofold:
1. I have a great wife and three fantastic children.
2. I feel I will fail and not be able to pass as a female and will be doomed as different.

I have addressed the first issue by asking my wife to leave me.  Her reply was, "Do you love me?"  I replied yes so that she said she would stay.  I catch my wife crying by herself and I ask her why she is crying and she says "You know."  I think she is talking about the depression.  I do not think she knows about this TG stuff because I never shared it with anyone.  (Except for "Do you know Eddie" who was a real person that came to my rescue when I was very young.)  If my wife leaves then my best friend would be gone.

My wife has asked me to go to therapy and I have.  I have gone since I was twenty and have taken every pill combination that the MD's think will work.  Nothing has ever worked except for additive medications which they will not prescribe.

I have never been able to tell any human face-to-face that I have transgender issues.  I am ashamed of it and my mannerisms.  I have not been able to tell even the psychiatrists so that they have to really read between the lines.  The last one got close.

I am now on a train that is moving very fast.  I have read that female hormones do not make you feel better.  I certainly feel better.  I feel like my caged mind has been let out!

If I tell my wife and she asks me to stop I will try to stop.

I felt really good a week ago.  For whatever reason my hormones were in balance and things seemed O.K.  I decided I no longer needed to take female hormones and stopped on my own!  The next day I was fine.  The following day I crashed and could not stop crying.  I still have not stabilized myself.

A few transgendered people have advised me to stay a male if I can figure out how to cope with it.  I agree with them but I am failing.  I feel much happier as a female.  However I am not sure how to be a female.  I learned how to be a male and I unlearned how I naturally expressed myself.  I am not sure how to get back but I am prepared to go alone.

The second item may be more difficult.  I am very strong willed and persistent but extremely sensitive.  I do not see how I can ever pass as a female.  I will still be an outcast.  This means I can lose my wife and be perceived as a man looking like a woman.

How will my son handle this?  How will my children handle this?

I was hoping maybe I can dampen my maleness and continue to let people think I am a male.

I go to bed with a shirt and my wife does not reach under the shirt.  Maybe she knows more than I think she knows?

In my analogy "The Three Hundred Spartans" the Spartans died in the end.  The anology can be interpreted to mean the death of "maleness" or the death of a "person".

Maybe it would be nice to explore the gender issue by step.  If each step seems right then go to the next step.

I know two years of hormones for me does not yet feel like too much.  However I read that one year is about the top limit.

I also know that I feel the changes have been too slow and non-existent.  Yet I have stretch marks on places I did not know get stretch marks until today!

If you can talk to your partner then you are ahead of other couples.  If you want to stay with your spouse you are ahead of even more of the couples.  If you can figure out how to make both of you happy then you go to the head of the class.

I actually hope I can stop because that is the logical choice but at the same time I am so excited to be me! 

Wendy I agree with everything Angel said and would like to add that the more you "play" at tjhis the more lies you are telling your wife. IF you have any hope of her remaining you need to sit down and have an honest discussion with her.
WRT your psychiatrist...what's the point in seeing one if you do not tell them the truth? How can ANY proper medication be prescribed without all the truth out there for them to see?

I have a theory on depression and meds prescribed for it. Depression is real and yes there are kinds of depression that just happen with NO apparent reason or underlying cause however I cannot tell you how many times I have been depressed due to real life happenings at a moment and docs wanting to push pills on me for it. If there are real reasons/happenings that make one depressed no depression meds are going to take it away. Only changing the situation when possible or applicable can. If it is a general depression unexplained by any cause then yes anti depression meds can help. In your case you have real life reasons to be depressed as does your wife - the difference is YOU know what they are and she does not. She does not know what is *wrong* with you and your marriage and is probably blaming herself and trying to figure out what to do to make it better and the harder she tries the worse she will get because she has NO idea what she is dealing with and that is has NOTHING to do with her. You can't just say "it's not you, it's me"....because that doesn't wash when she is sufferring too. You are making her carry your burden without her even knowing what it is and as an adult she should have the right to make her own choices of the burdens she carries. Out of respect for her alone you need to be honest. Validate your wife that she is an intelligent adult you love.

Then validate yourself by becoming the person you really are.

*hugz*

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 21, 2007, 03:55:00 PM
I have a theory on depression and meds prescribed for it. Depression is real and yes there are kinds of depression that just happen with NO apparent reason or underlying cause however I cannot tell you how many times I have been depressed due to real life happenings at a moment and docs wanting to push pills on me for it. If there are real reasons/happenings that make one depressed no depression meds are going to take it away. Only changing the situation when possible or applicable can. If it is a general depression unexplained by any cause then yes anti depression meds can help.

Just a bit more info on this.  My doctor refers to the depression you have related to real life happenings as "Situational Depression".  That is what she said I had.  I eventually got suicidal, so my wife had me go to the doctor for anti-depressants and I got some prescribed.  What happened is I ended up having a bad reaction to them (manic episodes) and had to get off of them.  Once I went fulltime, this drastically changed.  HRT actually doing it's thing helps somewhat as well.

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 21, 2007, 03:55:00 PM
In your case you have real life reasons to be depressed as does your wife - the difference is YOU know what they are and she does not. She does not know what is *wrong* with you and your marriage and is probably blaming herself and trying to figure out what to do to make it better and the harder she tries the worse she will get because she has NO idea what she is dealing with and that is has NOTHING to do with her. You can't just say "it's not you, it's me"....because that doesn't wash when she is sufferring too. You are making her carry your burden without her even knowing what it is and as an adult she should have the right to make her own choices of the burdens she carries. Out of respect for her alone you need to be honest. Validate your wife that she is an intelligent adult you love.

I have to agree with this as well.  My wife went through the same thing as well, except I did not know what was wrong with me.  I knew how I felt and I tried pushing those feelings away for years.  I was always isolated, irritable and snapped at people a lot and most of the time I was just nasty to be around.  Also, I just wasn't as "into" our marriage as she was.  She thought it was her and was looking for ways to change to see what she could do to "fix" the marriage.  She told me this after I came out to her.  I wish I had known my feeling meant I was TS before then, but I just didn't know how to deal with them and I honestly thought it was some kind of perversion, which is why I pushed the thoughts and feelings away.  Unfortunately her suffering through this is what REALLY killed the marriage.  The damage done was irrepairable and transition served as a catalyst that allowed her to find somebody else.  Even after I had come out, we tried to make it work for a good 6 months with lots of compromises on both sides, but in the end, the existing pain had not yet healed.  Hopefully this will help you realize that much more damage can be done to a relationship by NOT transitioning, than by the actual transition itself.  I personally don't blame or resent my ex for wanting to not be in the marriage and I always wish her happiness in her life.

Melissa

Dear Togetherwecan,

I apologize for taking a whole bunch of your thread!

I think I can relate to the "mind spin" Brooke is facing.

However as Kate and Melisa point out I keep denying I am TG.

How can I tell my wife I am TG if I can not accept it myself?

How can I tell the psychiatrist I am trangender if I do not believe I am transgender.

I think everyone including my dad thought I was gay.

All the weird stuff that I did I dismissed from my head.

After two years on female hormones I still can't admit I am transgendered.

After feeling better after taking female hormones when nothing else worked I still think I am not transgendered.

If I told my wife she would not believe me ...but it would make sense to her.

I like women, I got married, I look like a man no way I can be transgendered.

Currently I would rather die letting people think I am a man than let them know I am a woman.

My goodness my legs can press 750 pounds.

I am a handsome man but would be an ugly woman!

However I am so very tired of fighting myself.  Blaming myself.  Trying to make everyone happy.

I argue with every transgendered person, proceed to lose the argument and still can't believe I am transgendered.

It is not dying that is tough it is living that is tough.  I have no problem dying with people thinking I am a male.  I have a problem living with me as a male.

I think Brooke is doing great.  He has progressed many steps quickly.  No wonder he is in a mindspin!

I have stretch marks on my hips and nothing seems to work fast enough and I still do not believe I am transgendered.

I no longer wish to talk to the psychiatrists.  I think I have 400 Spartans instead of 300 in my head.

Maybe the meds will not work and I made my wife worry over nothing.

I am an extremely analytical person that has become irrational.

I have displayed me to fit the image that I seem.

How many decades can you say and then what?

Im gong to keep this short for you but here goes....

I reached my initial breaking point at 23...  I couldnt take it anymore and started takeing steps to transition, though I wasnt quite ready yet it felt great to finaly be doing something about it.  I met my ex fience durring this time.  When I came out to her she helped me and my transition went even faster.  Then things stopped... I was moveing way too quick and the "Family friendly" wedding we were aiming for wouldnt have been possable so she asked me to stop  <also the theripy and HRT were eating away our allready stressed finances>

So I stopped... and things went to hell... near the end of the 6 month period I had fully detransitioned...  I was beyond suicidal...  I had done it for her... and the though of her and how much my killing myself would hurt her was the only thing keeping me alive...  The morbid depression is part of the cause of the breakup...  when she broke up with me I nolonger had a reason to live...  she was my lifeline at that point...  I had a complet total nervous breakdown, tried to kill myself  <didnt have the guts to use my origonal plan so tried to hang myself but failed>  and worse <wont go into that sorry>.

Very lucky with my last remaining sanity I called the cops on myself before I could do anything worse and ended up commited...  I calmed down and didnt just go straight back to transition,  I bolted for it intent on regaining all I had lost with the detransition and enjoying my life again...

You can fool yourself into thinking the suffering is worth it for a short time, but in the end its transition or die.