The thread is called "The Official MTF "Do I Pass" Thread"
It's a problematic thread title for many. I think we should all feel safe posting pictures knowing that we will
receive feedback but with a thread like this folks are going to want to argue, and debate.
The subject of passing is a topic that alot of people take issue with. (I know I do.)
the way we criticize someones passing ability and how we demonstrate that on the forum is representing the transgender woman identity and everyone's identity as a trans person is unique so they perceive these topics differently. To pass can also be a political decision that alot of people take perspective on, and it's only political because of the title of the thread and the way the question is framed. (Do I pass? Opposed to.. What Improvements Should I Make?)
The point is.. Having dialogues and arguments has become apart of this thread and it always will be. I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing that we
all keep each other in check and have these discussions. Picture, picture, dialogue, dialogue, picture, picture...It's a pattern that has become somewhat necessary for all of us if we are going to have this kind of thread up. I'm not sure alot of this kind of stuff happens in the ftm thread and thats because i think us as trans women are sensitive to the politics of passing as women in a society where there is no normal looking woman. Is she blond? brunette? does she have an extended, large nose? does she not pluck her brows? does she not wear makeup? too much make up?
  We should all feel safe continuing to discuss these matters between posting pictures.
How do you feel about the idea of passing? Maybe we can have the arguments here instead.

Passing, in my real world, boils down to "Do I raise eyebrows because I look like a man who looks like a girl?" Sometimes I do. At times they think I'm a really pretty boy, other times they think I'm a femme tomboy.

I was asked whether I was a man yesterday. I said "I'm transgender," they asked what that meant, and all I could respond in the little time I had was, "It means I'm not a man."

You know what the guys answer to my response was? "Cool."

Do you remember the man conversations that swirled about when you were living as one? The entire scope of the conversation on passing is quite possibly (forgive me the fun of stereotyping):

"Do I pass?"
"No."
"Damn, how do I pass?"
"X+whatever=pass"
"Cool."
- goes to get a drink or fish -

OR

"Do I pass?"
"Yeah you look badass."
"Cool."
- Goes to get a drink or fish -

Different stakes, different attitudes, different ways of getting to the happy place.

To me, "passing" means to fool people into thinking something is what it definitely isn't.  As in, "you tried to pass the new turtle off as the dead turtle."

I don't pass, I blend.



(And if anyone gets that movie reference, many kudos to you!)

I think we have to be a little cautious about getting offended or upset by threads. I'm not the least phased by the 'do I pass threads' because I have no interest in it. I'm really not concerned about peoples opinion of how I look. I go out and meet people, I shop and go to hotels. I go to restaurants, I don't make any pretence any more. I'm me. If someone thinks I'm a guy in  dress fine, if someone things I'm a woman, fine. I know what I am and I have no problems, hang ups or shame about that.  Yes I go to beauty parlours of all sorts to make me look better, but most women do. I have my face lasered, my eyebrows shaped and tinted (had a session yesterday, she was so good, really got the shape I wanted), get pedicures and massages and you name it I'll try it. I've never been 'refused' because I'm a guy in a dress. I've just been accepted. After all I'm the one who is paying. 

I think woman do get hung up on their appearance, I think it is a female thing, I don't think it has anything to do with attracting guys it is just a female thing, and you see it start in girls at an incredibly young age, and not in boys.

But if people want to compare each other fine. I do by the way check out every woman I see to see what they are wearing, what the fashion is, how they did their makeup etc. And I'm pretty damn sure they do it to me

Zoe, Finding Nemo?


Cindy

One thing is that there's something more to passing in the real world than passing with a picture of yourself.

I think one could pass reliably in the real world yet not here, or one could pass reliably here but not in the real world.
I'm pretty sure some of the people in the thread who don't seem to quite pass in the pictures they posted, can pass quite comfortably in the real world with the right attitude, movements, etc.
(I know that I heavily relied on my demeanour to pass in the real world before I was full-time, and I actively looked for opportunities to interact with someone to increase my chances of passing)

A video of oneself would be sort of halfway between these two...

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 27, 2011, 12:56:47 AM
To me, "passing" means to fool people into thinking something is what it definitely isn't.  As in, "you tried to pass the new turtle off as the dead turtle."

I don't pass, I blend.

That's a good point! But I am somewhat ashamed to say that I still pass instead of blend, in the sense that I don't really want people to realize I'm trans, so I'm trying to pass for someone born female...

Quote from: Cindy James on November 27, 2011, 01:22:35 AM
I think woman do get hung up on their appearance, I think it is a female thing, I don't think it has anything to do with attracting guys it is just a female thing, and you see it start in girls at an incredibly young age, and not in boys.

In Asia many guys spend quite a while in front of the mirror making themselves look good... no kidding! Maybe not as long as girls, but 30 minutes or so...
But still, more girls care about their appearances than guys for sure!

Being openly critical of others, being argumentative, being obstinate and wanting to dominate others are strongly male traits, yet I see them demonstrated around here with regularity, mostly by those who most vocally proclaim that "they" are female.  Yeah, right.  I can tell by the way you act.  Important disclaimer:  I've not read the "do I pass" thread, nor do I care to.

      As has been said, passing in a photo is nothing at all like passing in public places.  Passing in casual encounters is the next step and is nothing like passing in more in-depth conversations and, so on, as the interactions get more personal and long lasting.  The question really is, can you project female to others and are you believable in doing so? 

      This really hasn't got much to do with your appearance.  We all see females daily who look masculine, yet we readily read them as female, because that's what they project.

      I guess one point I'll make is that if you want to be accepted as female, stop acting like a male. 

Quote from: Re: Joyce on November 27, 2011, 10:07:42 AM
Being openly critical of others, being argumentative, being obstinate and wanting to dominate others are strongly male traits, yet I see them demonstrated around here with regularity, mostly by those who most vocally proclaim that "they" are female.  Yeah, right.  I can tell by the way you act.  Important disclaimer:  I've not read the "do I pass" thread, nor do I care to.


      I guess one point I'll make is that if you want to be accepted as female, stop acting like a male.

You are policing trans bodies by telling them how they should behave related to their gender which can be perceived as transphobic. Everyone defines their trans gender identity differently, if they behave in what you may understand as male it still doesn't make them any less of a trans woman. The only thing you are doing is invalidating their gender.
Instead of the word "male" the word masculine is much less problematic because it is a word that can be reflected and understood in all genders. 

I've been part of the dialogue dialogue dialogue part and I opted out of the thread because I know it is so important to get honest feedback.

However I do have to say I see many people projecting their own dysphoria or ideals onto others.  This is why I think it is important for people to say "this is my look or goal."

As I've said many times  I'm a cisgendered woman who has been "clocked as trans" many times in my life.  I point this out to women posting in that thread because I want people to realize that cisgendered women get clocked as trans all the time.  But we don't get blown away by it, just a little down in the dumps.

I worry as a 40 year old woman  that younger women are not only dealing with the dysphoria issues with transgender concerns but also being indoctrinated into this position of HAVING TO PASS by looking GOOD ENOUGH.

I worry because this is very disempowering as women.  And I also agree that women who post pix and pass might not pass in real life and vice versa.

Also, there is safety to consider - some people can get quite violent if they clock you as being trans.... many trans people have been assaulted or killed for just being trans. I personally know one who has already been assaulted.... and dont even let me start on that tragic video of the trans woman being beaten into a seizure at McDonalds!!! 

I think "passing" also has a pragmatic and logical significance for us all as in terms of safety, probably which is one of the reasons we invest so heavily in "passing".

I misgendered a cisgendered woman once, she was devastated. I wanted to cry because I understood how it felt, but I couldn't do anything to make it better. She's a prominent artist on the scene where I live too, poor thing spent about 6 hours with me trying to figure out why I did it.

:/

Quote from: MsDazzler on November 27, 2011, 12:49:06 PM
Also, there is safety to consider - some people can get quite violent if they clock you as being trans.... many trans people have been assaulted or killed for just being trans. I personally know one who has already been assaulted.... and dont even let me start on that tragic video of the trans woman being beaten into a seizure at McDonalds!!! 

I think "passing" also has a pragmatic and logical significance for us all as in terms of safety, probably which is one of the reasons we invest so heavily in "passing".

I know that.  I've  been assaulted because someone thought I was.  I've posted about it already.  This was in Baltimore also 20 years ago right on Charles St but two black kids who attacked me and my gay friend.

Funny how we were just walking up the street together as two friends but arm in arm like a couple.  He was gay and I was straight, and  apparently it pissed these guys off because they thought I was transsexual.  Which I wasn't.

So yes passing is important, but I think the OP is pointing out when people are just being beeches or jerks, and not necessarily on this site.

Quote from: MsDazzler on November 27, 2011, 12:49:06 PM
Also, there is safety to consider - some people can get quite violent if they clock you as being trans.... many trans people have been assaulted or killed for just being.

I think "passing" also has a pragmatic and logical significance for us all as in terms of safety.

Right, but i think we need to change society. It's a huge problem that needs facing.  We aren't doing anything by just telling trans people to pass better.. Plus, there are trans people that will never pass and that's just how it is for some folks, how will they ever feel safe? I hope i never pass completely, but that's a political decision on my part. I understand that is biting off more then i can chew in this world, but instead of placing blame on a trans person for not passing good enough i'd rather focus on the people who are attacking trans people.
It's similar to telling women to not wear short skirts because that might seduce a man who might rape them. 
How someone wants to define their gender on their appearance should never result in them being attacked. We need to change that, not trans people and their ability to pass.

Quote from: Torn1990 on November 27, 2011, 12:14:39 PM
You are policing trans bodies by telling them how they should behave related to their gender which can be perceived as transphobic. Everyone defines their trans gender identity differently, if they behave in what you may understand as male it still doesn't make them any less of a trans woman. The only thing you are doing is invalidating their gender.
Instead of the word "male" the word masculine is much less problematic because it is a word that can be reflected and understood in all genders.

I guess I should have paid attention to your opening post calling for arguments here.     It is not my intention to police anyone, nor would it I seek to invalidate anyone's gender.

      I'm only sharing my experience with observing many live and cyber trans people.  It appears that the ones who seem to have the most trouble adjusting to life set up impossible obstacles for others to overcome in accepting them.  They may display massive chest hair while complaining about being misgendered, as one example.  (Yes, I've seen this).

      While changing the world is a wonderful objective, it's often easier to change oneself first, in order to gain a more sympathetic audience.

       Trans people will gain more acceptance as society in general becomes more familiar with those who have openly transitioned and become contributing members of society.  Become a dependable member of your team at work that your co-workers know they can depend on, as an example.  This will do more toward causing people to look more favorably on the trans condition than will behavior that's in people's faces.

       As a further example, if you want to tattoo and pierce your face, it is your right to do so.  You must understand, however, that such choices will also likely limit your employment opportunities, and may even go so far as to limit where you are able to live. 

       Openly "radical" trans behavior is more likely to set back trans rights, than to be helpful.

       Positive acts will generally precipitate positive results. 

Quote from: Re: Joyce on November 27, 2011, 03:17:44 PM
I guess I should have paid attention to your opening post calling for arguments here.     It is not my intention to police anyone, nor would it I seek to invalidate anyone's gender.

You're correct! And ofcourse it probably was not your intention but when you challenge a transgender woman's gender because they are behaving masculinely or in your perspective 'male' then that is what someone might feel you are doing.

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      I'm only sharing my experience with observing many live and cyber trans people.  It appears that the ones who seem to have the most trouble adjusting to life set up impossible obstacles for others to overcome in accepting them.  They may display massive chest hair while complaining about being misgendered, as one example.  (Yes, I've seen this).

sure, but we don't know their stories, they may be proud of their chest hair but still want to be identified as women. I am a woman with or without hormones and with or without electrolysis. If I wanted to embrace body hair and still feel like a woman that's up to me.
Maybe those impossible obstacles are more for their own mental fulfillment then for others. As for them complaining, well they have that right.

Quote
      While changing the world is a wonderful objective, it's often easier to change oneself first, in order to gain a more sympathetic audience.

It is easier. But tell that to any person of color who struggles with white supremacy and I will lol.

Quote

       Trans people will gain more acceptance as society in general becomes more familiar with those who have openly transitioned and become contributing members of society.  Become a dependable member of your team at work that your co-workers know they can depend on, as an example.  This will do more toward causing people to look more favorably on the trans condition than will behavior that's in people's faces.

Yeah but people are still going to hire cis gender heterosexuals before they will anyone else. Depends on the employer and the job of course. I think something needs to be done about this so that trans people can get jobs no matter what.

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       As a further example, if you want to tattoo and pierce your face, it is your right to do so.  You must understand, however, that such choices will also likely limit your employment opportunities, and may even go so far as to limit where you are able to live. 

I pierce and tattoo myself knowing this. My boyfriend's face is covered in piercings and he's getting his phd and is a college professor. There are many job opportunities still available to me and I only want to work in a place where I feel i can be myself anyway.
Otherwise I don't feel the comparison is the same, tattoos can be concealed and piercings can be temporarily removed but your trans identity or queer identity can not. You can hide it of course, but it is less detrimental on my mental health to hide a septum ring then it is to shove my identity in a drawer. But i am also privileged white and young so I have the privilege to make that decision and have that opinion.

Quote

       Openly "radical" trans behavior is more likely to set back trans rights, than to be helpful.

       Positive acts will generally precipitate positive results.

It depends on how you define radical behavior. I see any form of activism as radical, because you're making someone think even if nothing is changed. If we just tried to blend in all the time then rape or gender violence against transgender folks wouldn't ever be paid attention to, putting aside the lack of job opportunities, i think radical activism brings awareness of gender violence and that's why i'm aware of it.. Otherwise the news would be happy to just say.. "man wearing a dress is now in critical condition after being beat up by x." instead of "x beat up a transgender woman for using the women's restroom."
We need to enforce our rights and continue to be radical in my opinion to spread awareness. You can't blend in a bathroom if you can't pass, we need radical activism to create safer restrooms.