Quote from: MsDazzler on November 30, 2011, 08:06:10 PM
It is amusing how you always refer to Castro for your evidence and stories. 

If you go down there this weekend, you might run into me... I frequent all the bars and conduct all my "business" there. I also work in interior decorating...

I kick it at the Mixx & Badlands if I want a hookup, Qbar for warming up, the LOOKOUT for socializing, Cafe Flores, DIESEL, etc.

My ex frequents BADLANDS... OMG DRAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAA

I realised today that despite my interests always being "feminine" for the most part, there are a few typically "masculine" things I enjoy. Take for example cars, I absolutely love cars, and driving. However, it seems that no matter how much I enjoy masculine things, or how hard I try to enjoy them, they seem to just not be for me. All things masculine I'm absolutely awful at! Going back to the example of cars, today I attempted to just change the oil on my rather expensive sports car. Very stupid, because apparently I've filled it too far and likely need a mechanic to replace a bunch of things (which will be extremely expensive!).

Again, I suppose my interests will never change. Because apparently typically "masculine" interests and me just don't seem to work.  I may be the only person like this, but I guess it makes it more obvious to me that I'm not male after all.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 30, 2011, 06:25:31 AM
Well, ok, let's put it this way: wouldn't it be nice to talk to a FTM who runs a nail or beautyparlor and claims it's a manly thing to do?
In comparison to MTF's who are heavily into guns, weapons, gunplay, baseball, big trucks and fast cars (and claims that's a girly to do?)

Such FTM's simply don't exist....so how on earth can it be that there are so many MTF's with very, very, very masculine interests AND claim to be 'no less woman than a born woman'?? But are very, very masculine by nature?

So, I've refrained from this whole "Why are MTFs all butch, but FTMs aren't femme" discussion because it's riddled with ridiculous stereotypes, but it seems like nobody's going to state the obvious here.  Regardless of what Western nation you're from, the vast majority of us here are from Western nations, which are generally extremely masculine, as cultures that have evolved from masculine economies and masculine religions.  I just got in a massive argument with a bunch of burlesque dancers who insisted that dancing isn't about expression as much as it's about competition.  They then went on to make sports analogies about their art form.  These are all women who were born women, whose mode of expression is based around extremely feminine sexuality.  Why are there so many masculine MTFs?  Because it's "good" to be masculine; it's empowering!  Why are there so few feminine FTMs?  Because it's "bad" to be feminine; it's subservient!

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 01, 2011, 05:04:49 PM
So, I've refrained from this whole "Why are MTFs all butch, but FTMs aren't femme" discussion because it's riddled with ridiculous stereotypes, but it seems like nobody's going to state the obvious here.  Regardless of what Western nation you're from, the vast majority of us here are from Western nations, which are generally extremely masculine, as cultures that have evolved from masculine economies and masculine religions.  I just got in a massive argument with a bunch of burlesque dancers who insisted that dancing isn't about expression as much as it's about competition.  They then went on to make sports analogies about their art form.  These are all women who were born women, whose mode of expression is based around extremely feminine sexuality.  Why are there so many masculine MTFs?  Because it's "good" to be masculine; it's empowering!  Why are there so few feminine FTMs?  Because it's "bad" to be feminine; it's subservient!

Wait, what, we live in a masculine culture?

I guess if you ignore all the women... and all the feminine things that, you know, women do...

Yes, there is obviously not a complete lack of femininity and perhaps I'm mistaken about what's masculine and what's feminine, but to me, competition is masculine and cooperation is feminine.  To me, two major religions in which there is a single all-everything being that created the Universe, with a male gender and passages in their respective holy books that imply that women and men who are effeminate should be oppressed (not to mention the creation story of one being based around the corruption of man being caused by a woman, a secondary aspect of the true creation, man) being a cornerstone of the foundations of these cultures, would be masculine.  Of course, I could be completely mistaken.  Actually, forget I said anything.  I shouldn't have in the first place.  I should honestly stop saying anything to anyone about anything because it's automatically wrong on some or most levels.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 01, 2011, 05:04:49 PM
So, I've refrained from this whole "Why are MTFs all butch, but FTMs aren't femme" discussion because it's riddled with ridiculous stereotypes, but it seems like nobody's going to state the obvious here.  Regardless of what Western nation you're from, the vast majority of us here are from Western nations, which are generally extremely masculine, as cultures that have evolved from masculine economies and masculine religions.  I just got in a massive argument with a bunch of burlesque dancers who insisted that dancing isn't about expression as much as it's about competition.  They then went on to make sports analogies about their art form.  These are all women who were born women, whose mode of expression is based around extremely feminine sexuality.  Why are there so many masculine MTFs?  Because it's "good" to be masculine; it's empowering!  Why are there so few feminine FTMs?  Because it's "bad" to be feminine; it's subservient!

I'm from the Netherlands and Dutch (straight) men happen to be 'feminized' to some degree  over the course of 4 decades of emancipation.
Most of them don't think it's 'good' to be (overly) masculine and most of them don't think it's bad to be  'subservient'.

(Straight) women aren't 'masculinized'  (at all)

Yes, emancipation and feminism led to that and it's a good thing.

Yet it's a lot of Dutch MTF's who are (and act) very masculine in terms of interests too....

Have you ever watched the Spanish movie  'All about my mother' by Pedro Aldomovar? It's about a MTF father who turns out very masculine acting (and looking)

There's one line that's typical 'stereotyping' an MTF:

her (GG) ex wife meets up with her again after years and years, seeing and noticing her acting very masculine she looks in awe, wonders and says: 'how can you be so macho with a set of tits like that'?

Mind you, Pedro Aldomovar is very, very openminded....

Quote from: Dahlia on December 02, 2011, 03:55:50 AM
I'm from the Netherlands and Dutch (straight) men happen to be 'feminized' to some degree  over the course of 4 decades of emancipation.
Most of them don't think it's 'good' to be (overly) masculine and most of them don't think it's bad to be  'subservient'.

(Straight) women aren't 'masculinized'  (at all)

Yes, emancipation and feminism led to that and it's a good thing.

Yet it's a lot of Dutch MTF's who are (and act) very masculine in terms of interests too....

Have you ever watched the Spanish movie  'All about my mother' by Pedro Aldomovar? It's about a MTF father who turns out very masculine acting (and looking)

There's one line that's typical 'stereotyping' an MTF:

her (GG) ex wife meets up with her again after years and years, seeing and noticing her acting very masculine she looks in awe, wonders and says: 'how can you be so macho with a set of tits like that'?

Mind you, Pedro Aldomovar is very, very openminded....

Mostly, I can't fathom why someone would want to go through all the pains of transition just to act and be like a man anyway. They don't want to wear makeup and they don't pay attention to fashion. They're probably just going to date a woman anyway. They still do mostly manly hobbies. So they're only making it harder to be who they are by transitioning, when transitioning was supposed to be making the body match the personality. I don't understand what the point of that is.

Quote from: pretty on December 02, 2011, 10:17:59 AM

Mostly, I can't fathom why someone would want to go through all the pains of transition just to act and be like a man anyway. They don't want to wear makeup and they don't pay attention to fashion. They're probably just going to date a woman anyway. They still do mostly manly hobbies. So they're only making it harder to be who they are by transitioning, when transitioning was supposed to be making the body match the personality. I don't understand what the point of that is.

I would love to have the ability to pass without makeup or fashion, and had I been born a girl I would never care about those things. Looks are only important to me in so far as it causes people to view me properly as who I am inside. I'm concerned about appearing clean because I don't want people to think I'm a slob, and I'm concerned about appearing female because I want people to stop relating to me as a man. The most stressful thing to me right now is that because I have long hair but appear male, if I don't take really really good care of my hair people will think I'm a drug addict or homeless or something like that. (my hair is REALLY hard to care for...)

I'm not sure how dating girls defeats the purpose of transitioning. Not everyone wants to be straight. Not everyone wants to match society's definition of what a woman should be.

Only so far as I'm careful what I do and how I do it so I don't mess up my nails or get any cuts. But I will still work on my car, do stuff outside, work on my house, especially since I rebuilt it while transitioning, and doing whatever suits me to be happy or save paying money to inept mechanics, carpenters or whatnot.  I just like to look nice while doing it:-)

Quote from: Lily on December 02, 2011, 10:33:21 AM
I would love to have the ability to pass without makeup or fashion, and had I been born a girl I would never care about those things. Looks are only important to me in so far as it causes people to view me properly as who I am inside. I'm concerned about appearing clean because I don't want people to think I'm a slob, and I'm concerned about appearing female because I want people to stop relating to me as a man. The most stressful thing to me right now is that because I have long hair but appear male, if I don't take really really good care of my hair people will think I'm a drug addict or homeless or something like that. (my hair is REALLY hard to care for...)

I'm not sure how dating girls defeats the purpose of transitioning. Not everyone wants to be straight. Not everyone wants to match society's definition of what a woman should be.

Yeah but why appeal to them seeing you as a woman if you don't fit/agree with their definition of a woman anyway? Then, at best they'll see you as something you don't even want to be.

I don't know. I guess I just don't understand the insistence on the label of "woman" when none of the substance is there. It gets stripped down over and over again so that we can only define "being a woman" as feeling like a woman. And who can really know what that feels like? Some people say they feel like a vampire or a lizard. Gender is socially defined and felt. A feral child, for example, has no concept of their own gender. The label of "woman" exists because women usually act differently than men and they serve a different social purpose. If women were just like men anyway, there would be no point in differentiating between them.

Transitioning complicates the whole thing because cis people don't have to justify their sex. That's because they didn't choose it. But when you transition, you are making a clear choice as to which sex you want to be. So the question becomes, why choose that sex if your behaviors and interests and sexuality are really better suited to your birth sex?

And I'm not being the ->-bleeped-<- police I just really have trouble understanding why you would want to go through all this crap that transition brings if people are just not going to understand anyway.

Quote from: pretty on December 02, 2011, 11:24:56 AM
Yeah but why appeal to them seeing you as a woman if you don't fit/agree with their definition of a woman anyway? Then, at best they'll see you as something you don't even want to be.

I don't know. I guess I just don't understand the insistence on the label of "woman" when none of the substance is there. It gets stripped down over and over again so that we can only define "being a woman" as feeling like a woman. And who can really know what that feels like? Some people say they feel like a vampire or a lizard. Gender is socially defined and felt. A feral child, for example, has no concept of their own gender. The label of "woman" exists because women usually act differently than men and they serve a different social purpose. If women were just like men anyway, there would be no point in differentiating between them.

Transitioning complicates the whole thing because cis people don't have to justify their sex. That's because they didn't choose it. But when you transition, you are making a clear choice as to which sex you want to be. So the question becomes, why choose that sex if your behaviors and interests and sexuality are really better suited to your birth sex?

And I'm not being the ->-bleeped-<- police I just really have trouble understanding why you would want to go through all this crap that transition brings if people are just not going to understand anyway.

Because I simply want to be who I feel myself to be. I would go through any pain to get that.

If I were cis, my interests wouldn't even be called into question. Why would a cis woman have "male interests?" Because that's who she is, there isn't anything else to it.

Amen Beverly I drive truck dose that make me less of a woman? I don't think so I see plenty of woman truck drivers and very few of them are masculine at all. Yes I wear makeup and LOVE shopping and looking cute but I also like the things I liked before I don't think I should stop liking activities just because some people view them as masculine.. My mother (a born girl) is more masculine then most men I know in her hobbies activities way she dresses etc but is still a woman. So why can't I enjoy remodeling my house or driving truck or doing my own maintenance on my truck to save me bookoo dollars?

Hitting on the original topic of this thread: I used to hate shopping... Now I cant drive past a store without thinking of a dozen things at least that I could buy. Also the items I purchase tend to be more clothing, jewelry, beauty products and before it was mostly electronics. I also love to dance now (taking dance lessons thanks to my new xbox kinnect  ). And even have a new favorite color. And I haven't even started hrt yet. I think when mentally and emotionally we accept what is and start the transition process we free ourselves of social stigmas and allow the feelings,wants,desires etc that we have tried to bury for so long subconsciously or consciously because they were not socially accepted to come out hence my new found love for clothing. I still enjoy a lot of the things I did as a male because I really never did anything that I didn't actually enjoy. Never got into sports (except Nascar ) Never really got into hunting either. I could go either way on the guns.

But as far as saying that someone is more or less feminine or masculine because of the activity's they enjoy or because of there sexual preference is in my opinion anyways sexist.

Anyways not trying to start an argument just saying my piece

hugs all

Quote from: Ashley_Jo on December 03, 2011, 02:23:34 AM


I used to hate shopping... Now I cant drive past a store without thinking of a dozen things at least that I could buy. Also the items I purchase tend to be more clothing, jewelry, beauty products and before it was mostly electronics.

But as far as saying that someone is more or less feminine or masculine because of the activity's they enjoy or because of there sexual preference is in my opinion anyways sexist.

That's quite a change, isn't it?

I've read similar things in this thread like 'I just loved -masculine things to do-  but now it has waned and now I love -to do feminine things-  etcetc.

Makes me think some MTF's play women instead of being women.

Shopping as a woman is a different experience to shopping as a man. Couldn't it be that a person might enjoy one while not liking the other?

I can very well see an MtF who, while a man, didn't care at all about how she looked but suddenly as a woman becomes interested with her appearance. I don't see how anyone is "playing at" anything.

Quote from: Lily on December 03, 2011, 08:53:05 AM
Shopping as a woman is a different experience to shopping as a man. Couldn't it be that a person might enjoy one while not liking the other?

I can very well see an MtF who, while a man, didn't care at all about how she looked but suddenly as a woman becomes interested with her appearance. I don't see how anyone is "playing at" anything.

As a man you can love shopping for nice things to decorate your house with, for presents for loved ones or kitchen appliances etcetc.


It sounds to 'or-or' to me.

My interests aren't gendered, they're simply things that I'm interested in. They haven't changed at all, with the exception that I think women's clothing is much more varied and colorful. Men's clothing is boring!

Z

Dahlia I should have been a bit more clear I'm sorry. What I should have said is As a man I hated shopping for clothing, I still shopped, just for electronics and car things etc, and yea I'm one of those that I really didn't care what I looked like. Iv worn the same clothes for days straight as a male and still do when I'm in male mode (as I haven't started full time yet) Now that I'm comfortable with myself and like what I'm becoming I do care what I look like.. So maybe that is just playing at being a girl and maybe not. To me its not and as Beverly said our Transition is for ourselves as long as we feel comfortable and happy with our new chosen/preferred gender then it really don't matter how other people define us in relation to gender.

So in essence what you define as "playing women" woman I define as for the first time in 27 years I actually care about my appearance and actually enjoying getting dressed/putting makeup on. I don't feel that its something that I have to do to fit in or appear more feminine. 

P.S. I loved getting all dressed up for a formal event even as a man just not to the degree that I do now.

Quote from: Zythyra on December 03, 2011, 09:01:43 AM

with the exception that I think women's clothing is much more varied and colorful. Men's clothing is boring!

Z

On the contrary, there's a wide choice of men's clothing/fashion/styles/jewelry here in the Netherlands. Nice colours and patterns, nice fabrics and not boring to look at at all.

If it wasn't for the 'men's cut' I would have bought several men's things myself. Very appealing.

Quote from: Dahlia on December 03, 2011, 08:34:46 AM
That's quite a change, isn't it?

I've read similar things in this thread like 'I just loved -masculine things to do-  but now it has waned and now I love -to do feminine things-  etcetc.

Makes me think some MTF's play women instead of being women.

Switching from doing male things to female things is perfectly natural and anyone who thinks that shows MTFs are just playing women hasn't got the foggiest idea of TSism.

I'm sure lots of CD/TVs/AG/G/L/B/TG do play at the opposite gender but they are easily recognised as their true selves.