The Boston Globe
Emily Sweeney
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/norwood/2011/11/should_boys_be_allowed_to_swim.html

What happens when a high school boy breaks a girls' swimming record?

The governing body that regulates high school athletics in Massachusetts plans to grapple with that question, as more boys are competing on girls' swim teams in the fall season than ever before. Earlier this month, a male student from Norwood High, Will Higgins, broke a meet record for the girls' 50-yard freestyle, leaving athletic officials scratching their heads over what to do.

Officials from the Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association are expected to review the issue in January, and discuss what - if anything - can be done to address the new record and other concerns raised by female swimmers and some swim coaches.

You raise an interesting question.

The laudable goal of USC 20, Title IX, was:

No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance...

The idea was to avoid second-class citizenship for females in sports.  However, as Title IX has been implemented, it has been claimed that "reverse discrimination" has developed.

As men's sports in high school and colleges are being eliminated, while their women's counterparts are surviving, a backlash has developed.  Your article about swim teams in Boston are but one example. 

It may be that in some areas, sports will necessarily become "uninsex" - and the consequence will be that fewer girls and women will be able to compete.

every sporting event shows that GGs are physically inferior to GBs - in most societies GBs choose or encouraged to be more physically active than GGs so obviously will have better strength, endurance and reflexes.

if a person cannot be classified as definietly one gender than another for sports then maybe there needs to be a weight handicap system like in horse racing?

Quoteevery sporting event shows that GGs are physically inferior to GBs - in most societies GBs choose or encouraged to be more physically active than GGs so obviously will have better strength, endurance and reflexes.]every sporting event shows that GGs are physically inferior to GBs - in most societies GBs choose or encouraged to be more physically active than GGs so obviously will have better strength, endurance and reflexes.

wut.

You know GG's make better pilots, right? There are different abilities and skill sets, sure, and I'm not going to pretend that girls and boys are the same, but "physically inferior" is a bit of a stretch, as is the idea that culture and physical activity give GB's better strength, endurance and reflexes.

I think it's downright silly to let boys break a girls' swimming record in the name of equality. After all, boys and girls are NOT the same.

Quote from: apple pie on December 03, 2011, 06:02:31 AM
I think it's downright silly to let boys break a girls' swimming record in the name of equality. After all, boys and girls are NOT the same.

It's not in the name of equality, exactly. It's because they don't have a team, and they're children (technically). They all get to play any sports they want. If there are no girls teams in football, girls get to join the boy football team. If there are no boys teams in swimming, boys get to join the girl swim team. It's just weird logistics. The stats are what they are.

I'm sorry but this is just retarded.  I do not care equal crap or what but make the boys go in after the girls against other boys or before against other boys.  Even if there are few to do it having either gender break the others record is stupid.  These are not mixed events but forced mix events.  Which is not what most of them signed up for when going in. 

There are just so many easy ways to make sure each side goes up against their own gender the whole topic is retarded. 

Quote from: Korlee on December 03, 2011, 06:21:31 AM
I'm sorry but this is just retarded.  I do not care equal crap or what but make the boys go in after the girls against other boys or before against other boys.  Even if there are few to do it having either gender break the others record is stupid.  These are not mixed events but forced mix events.  Which is not what most of them signed up for when going in. 

There are just so many easy ways to make sure each side goes up against their own gender the whole topic is retarded.

Yeah but hey, like I said to apple pie, these are children we're talking about. It's only the adults who care about records. If you know of "easy ways to make sure each side goes up against their own gender," then please submit those ideas to the public school systems. We're all ears.

 

It's only the adults who care about records
How do I know you weren't a jock growing up?  Every single guy I know who played HS football (or girl who played soccer or softball, or ran track...) can tell you what their team record was, if they won the Championship, or if they were undefeated, or if they never won a game, every HS jock, male or female can tell you if they set a state record when they were playing - and they are going to know that, as my friends do, 40-50 years after they actually played those games, or set those records.  I skied downhill competitively in the FWSA in HS.  That was back when Nixon was President.  I can still tell you my ranking for every one of those 4 years.  I can still tell you the winning time from the one and only race I won in those four years (I tended to place a steady 4th/5th, but did OK in the overall because I did do it steadily, other people won big or crashed and DNF).

I'm sure, like many schools do, there was a wall in our gym that had all that information listed, who held what school records, what championships were won, who holds what state records.  You're not going to forget your name up there.  Hell, I go back to watch games in that gym and my eyes always look at the banners we won (3 conference championships in football, 2 in basketball, one Top of the Bay Championship) when I was there - yeah, 40 years ago, plus.

So people really, really care about records.  Not just adults.


... and they're children /// They all get to play any sports they want
Well they are not, and they don't.  They obviously (it's the point of the story after all) not getting to play any sport they want, as sports on that level are being cut due to catastrophic budget cutbacks in most areas.  And, for a lot of these kids it's pretty serious stuff.  It's serious on the level of their interpersonal stuff - and, more importantly - in stuff like college scholarships.  Whatever gg just lost the chance to be the state champion may well have lost a scholarship in that process also.

If you know of "easy ways to make sure each side goes up against their own gender," then please submit those ideas to the public school systems.
It wasn't even a serious question until a decade ago now, and they are going to have to follow the lead of international sports - which, like it or not - is going to end up being genetic testing

One of the key things that makes sport 'sport' is that a huge amount of effort goes into making sure the game is as 'fair' as possible for both sides so it ends up being a contest of skill as opposed to luck.  And there is no way to 'fair up' the differences in between teen age boys and girls for most sports.  My female friend Pooh (yeah, that's what everyone called her), was a much, much better skier than I ever was, but as good as she got her downhill times were always just a touch (a couple of seconds at best) behind mine, even though she was skiing better, that 50lb difference between us was all but impossible to overcome given the basic physics of the event.  And in a sport where times were split down to the 1/10 of a second (1/100 now in international competition) a couple of seconds is forever.   

Quote from: Felix on December 03, 2011, 04:58:10 AM
wut.

You know GG's make better pilots, right? There are different abilities and skill sets, sure, and I'm not going to pretend that girls and boys are the same, but "physically inferior" is a bit of a stretch, as is the idea that culture and physical activity give GB's better strength, endurance and reflexes.

what a load of girlie nonsense.

A few tired old braincells just fired and reminded me that I'm the undefeated school discus thrower from when I was 15 and about halfway through male puberty development and I'm sure none of the GGs in my year could throw anywhere near as far as me though I did envy them playing netball.

You know GG's make better pilots

Perhaps they should get off sports teams then and get into the cockpit and get back to work.

If we should switch a couple of words around in the question into; "Should girls be allowed to swim on boys' teams?", then alot of people would without hesitation say; "Yes ofcourse! It's 2011!".
Thing is, however, that there are lots of examples where traditionally male occupations and sports have been "adapted" into also accepting females. Not on equal terms, however, but on adapted terms, and males have in severalinstances even gotten the cold hand in favor of a "Balanced" portion of female participaters.
Or, Firefighters lowering the Physiology tests so that also females can manage them, as the majority of the females that applied to the education couldn't manage them as the tests already where.
Or, Bowling-nights where females that participates are rewarded with 4 extra points for each strike they make, while the males that does the exact same strikes, are only getting the ordinary points.

My point is, if it is really equality people wants that claims to want it in the name of feminism, then why do they never react when boys are discriminated from, for instance, girls events, but only when the other way around or something similar happens?


This is what happens when Society is overeating on Political Correctness. A boy beats a girl in swimming, and everyone says; "Wait, THAT wasn't what was suppose to happen! Sexism!".

By the way; There is no such thing as "Reverse Sexism", there is only Sexism; a word that has no inclination with a specific gender whatsoever.

Tekla, has put it nicely.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 03, 2011, 01:24:58 PM
If we should switch a couple of words around in the question into; "Should girls be allowed to swim on boys' teams?", then a lot of people would without hesitation say; "Yes of course! It's 2011!".

Interesting point.

I am all for equal opportunity, but I don't see how we can avoid the consideration of sexual dimorphism as applied to sports.

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 03, 2011, 12:55:03 PM
what a load of girlie nonsense.

A few tired old braincells just fired and reminded me that I'm the undefeated school discus thrower from when I was 15 and about halfway through male puberty development and I'm sure none of the GGs in my year could throw anywhere near as far as me though I did envy them playing netball.

Hey I never said GG's were stronger or could throw farther. There are different skill sets. "Physically inferior" is just wrong.

Quote... and they're children /// They all get to play any sports they want
Well they are not, and they don't.  They obviously (it's the point of the story after all) not getting to play any sport they want, as sports on that level are being cut due to catastrophic budget cutbacks in most areas.  And, for a lot of these kids it's pretty serious stuff.  It's serious on the level of their interpersonal stuff - and, more importantly - in stuff like college scholarships.  Whatever gg just lost the chance to be the state champion may well have lost a scholarship in that process also.

By "they all get to play any sports they want," I'm just referring to title protections and their intended effect, not what actually happens.

And tekla I didn't finish middle school. I was homeless at the age most kids go to high school. No I was not a jock. I played tons of pickup baseball and football growing up though, and I collected baseball cards and went to college football games, and I do understand the importance of statistics. Kids in school are still kids, and there are tangly practicalities involved in trying to make sure everyone gets treated fairly with what money and programs are available.

just watched telly and the Ironman triathlon thing where the competitors have to swim/cycle/run and the GG were left way behind the guys so physically inferior is a fact.


if both sexes have to start competing together then there needs to be some sort of handicapping system same as horse racing to try even the differences - only identical height/weights to compete, guys strap weights to their legs, slim girls wear inflated suits to cancel out the better streamlining, lowlanders banned from competing against hillfolk as the lungs efficiency might give an advantage, veggies and vegans to be forced to eat meat to make sure their digestive system isn't giving them an advantage...etc

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 03, 2011, 12:55:03 PM
what a load of girlie nonsense.

A few tired old braincells just fired and reminded me that I'm the undefeated school discus thrower from when I was 15 and about halfway through male puberty development and I'm sure none of the GGs in my year could throw anywhere near as far as me though I did envy them playing netball.

Being smaller and having less brute strength does not equal "inferior" in the slightest. Maybe add some nuance and you can use that word. Inferior at american football, how about that? I see what you're trying to say, but you are inaccurate when you speak so broadly.

And using the word "girlie" when talking to a man with breasts is a cheap shot, and cruel. Cut it out.