Hi!

I don't mean to incite a heated discussion so I hope you can at least try to read this post from my perspective.

For the past 12 months I've had a little problem and I got to the point where I felt the need to share experiences with people in the same situation. So I came here. I have absolutely no one besides my near family to talk to and they obviously have no experience in this.

I decided to log in to the chat-room and started typing, asking if anyone in there had experience in post-op disclosure in relationships. I pressed "enter" and sat there hoping for a helpful soul to show up. Instead.... all hell broke loose.

I read lines like "if you don't disclose before even thinking about a relationship you are a liar / bad person" and "I don't understand how stupid some TS are who think they can pull this off, it's always going to come out anyway" and "OMG, not this crap again, lying is bad, don't lie about who you are" and things like that...
I replied that I respect the opinions of everyone but I'm not interested in hearing them or start a debate, I'm just looking for someone with actual RL experience to talk to.
The flaming continued and no one seemed to care that perhaps I wasn't interested in having a philosophical debate with random people about a personal problem and being called a liar and idiot in the process.

I know there is a constant debate on sites like this about post-op elitism and post-ops abandoning the community instead of staying to help others and to some extent that probably has some truth to it. However, the door swings both ways. Why stick around in a community when you get told that your opinions are wrong or elitist or when you get called a liar, stupid or worse for a problem which is real to you but only hypothetical to most people throwing around opinions?
The situation above would perhaps once have made me angry enough to write a long self-righteous I've-had-it-with-you-lot-so-I'm-leaving post in the forums. The replies would have been along the lines of "good riddance" followed by someone defending me, followed by the thread getting locked and everyone feeling sour.
This brief little visit to the chat room made me remember how insanely strong people feel about these issues. It made me think about how all this went from being extremely important to completely irrelevant when you get a few years perspective....

But you know, maybe that post-op who finally turns her back on the community in a sea of flames actually had something to teach and a story to tell in between those flames, if you'd only listen.
And maybe that TG-activist who the elitist post-op despise, the one being "out and proud", is providing a lot of help to others even if it's not to YOU, the elitist post-op, but to those who come AFTER you. Maybe he/she is fighting a war just as tough as yours, if you'd only take the time to appreciate his/her situation. Embrace the fact that you are different people having different problems.

Perhaps there are some of you who should think about that. Take care of each other and don't drive each other away in personal vendettas. There is no "i win" for any of us.

What chatroom did you log into?

Was it Susan's?

The internet is full of bullies, men and women who wouldn't have the courage to say "Boo!" in real life...and for some people, their maturity level drops about 4 degrees below "understanding adult."

This is both a blessing and a curse. Sometimes it's good to get the unvarnished truth about a matter, sometimes however what comes out is more vitriol and venom than anything else.

Since we can't control how others present online, what we can do is ignore the venomous parts and try to read between the lines...or say "Could you clarify that for me, please?" and hope for the best.

QuoteHowever, the door swings both ways. Why stick around in a community when you get told that your opinions are wrong or elitist or when you get called a liar, stupid or worse for a problem which is real to you but only hypothetical to most people throwing around opinions?

The elitist post ops that left were of the opinion that we are men because we still have dicks and that our identities are a lie. They ended up filling several subforums with their filth before finally leaving.

So yeah, I'm glad they were made to feel unwelcome. They insulted the whole forum. They are imo worse than the religious bigots and radfems because having once lived as we did they should know better.

QuoteBut you know, maybe that post-op who finally turns her back on the community in a sea of flames actually had something to teach and a story to tell in between those flames, if you'd only listen.

The lesson they taught me is "just because you're part of a marginalized group doesn't mean you can't still marginalize others." What is sad is that many of them were good posters prior to srs.

Yeah, the further one goes along in the transition, the higher and mightier one gets, heh.

I've noticed implants have the same effect to an extent as getting SRS - some of my friends became really snooty and arrognant after getting implants. 

Ok that kind of mean of them. 

who you tell when if ever is based on these thing

-How close are you to them

-How likely is rejection

-Will it affect financially



So you have to weigh them against each other.  If it's some one that close to you but you are sure they will reject you.  Then don't tell them.  I wouldn't and not because I don't love them.  But because Being female is important to me and I will not willingly deal with some one trying to talk me out of it, just because they don't understand.

Also if you have a job where the odds of getting harassed are very high I would not tell them.  What I would do is start job hunting as your self. in my case as a girl and never bother coming out to my current employer.  you could time it so you start your new job just after SRS.

The only time it would be wrong to hide is when you are only doing it because you care about them.  I know that sounds backwards.  But your friends a family probably already know there something going on.  just not what or why.  Telling them will be really hard, my brother really doesn't want anything to do with me.  But everyone else is being great.  And I'm happier now that I don't have to watch my self ALL the time.

If you want to talk my yahoo is "jenny.longe"

I don't see the filth?

The elitist post-ops were just moving on and disappearing off into woman's life?

And as most woman and men are transphobic to quite a degree and as the true-TS will have the bit of brain like a woman then it is logical that once liberated from male life they/we will want to join the ranks of women and be one with the same amount of transphobia - with more than a touch of 'getting read by association with less passing TS'.

Trying to convey what's in your heart and mind through words alone is like trying to describe an intricate painting without ever being able to even show a picture of it.  When you have only your written words to convey your message, you can be sure people will take their own stuff and attach it to whatever it is you are trying to say.  Often they are taking your message and using it to discuss their own issues.  And they get to beat on you when they really are wanting to beat on someone else, or themselves.

Religion, politics and transgender issues.  Anyone of us could post something about any one of those and start a flame war.  And it doesn't take much to get it going.

So I wouldn't be too upset about the heated discussion that followed your post.  One of the best lessons I've learned since I transitioned is, "This is my life.  If you want to make an issue of it, fine.  But don't expect me to participate in your drama."

Religion, politics and transgender issues.

Nah, the best arguments come from (and it's no different in the non-trans community, so see, you're just like everyone else, really) the first, and most basic application of 'age-of-reason' morality - that is: What do I owe to other people? 

Quote from: Lily on November 28, 2011, 06:53:39 PM
The elitist post ops that left were of the opinion that we are men because we still have dicks and that our identities are a lie. They ended up filling several subforums with their filth before finally leaving.

So yeah, I'm glad they were made to feel unwelcome. They insulted the whole forum. They are imo worse than the religious bigots and radfems because having once lived as we did they should know better.

The lesson they taught me is "just because you're part of a marginalized group doesn't mean you can't still marginalize others." What is sad is that many of them were good posters prior to srs.

I think it's a bit more subtle.
The post-ops know where they come from and are willing to offer a helping hand.
Often there is one comment: do you think you are better because you have surgery, you're just a freak like us.

This post has had relationships with heterosexuals, even married, has a good job and a happy life.
So, I think we can learn from eachother.

Also, I think your words are a bit rude to the post ops, there is no post op who has something against pre ops, after all, we were pre ops ourself, only when someone is non op, want to be seen as a woman while keeping the male privileges, and saying that we are the same, is in my opinion an abuse of the umbrella.

Quote from: annette on November 30, 2011, 12:00:25 PM
I think it's a bit more subtle.
The post-ops know where they come from and are willing to offer a helping hand.
Often there is one comment: do you think you are better because you have surgery, you're just a freak like us.

This post has had relationships with heterosexuals, even married, has a good job and a happy life.
So, I think we can learn from eachother.

Also, I think your words are a bit rude to the post ops, there is no post op who has something against pre ops, after all, we were pre ops ourself, only when someone is non op, want to be seen as a woman while keeping the male privileges, and saying that we are the same, is in my opinion an abuse of the umbrella.

Near useless comic-sized man bits are privlidges? I admit everyone needs a giggle now and then and Near useless comic-sized man bits are quite funny to look at so you may have a point there.

glad i can't figure out how to get in a chat room   

Hi Thriss

Was this in Susan's chat?

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on December 01, 2011, 02:10:18 AM
Hi Thriss

Was this in Susan's chat?

Cindy

It was... But it wasn't recently. I don't really come here a lot.
It was just something I remembered when I did my yearly ritual (following my operation) where every year I sit alone in the dark and light a candle for myself, thinking about life in general. I just decided to make a little post about it that was supposed to mean:

"There is no coherent community, you/we are all different people with different problems and different views. Some people seem to 
think there is "we" who should stick together in everything and it is better if those who doesn't see things the same way leaves, so "we" don't have to deal with them".

My point was sort of illustrated instantly by Lily:

Quote from: Lily on November 28, 2011, 06:53:39 PM
The elitist post ops that left were of the opinion that we are men because we still have dicks and that our identities are a lie. They ended up filling several subforums with their filth before finally leaving.

So yeah, I'm glad they were made to feel unwelcome. They insulted the whole forum. They are imo worse than the religious bigots and radfems because having once lived as we did they should know better.