Quote from: FullMoon19 on December 05, 2011, 10:12:04 PM
what exactly is important gender related stuff at 2? if you get the pull ups from the blue or pink wrap? seriously, i can't even remember anything from being 2. also, at 4 i liked to play with dolls, but i was nowhere near the concept of "born in the wrong body." i don't know, i believe in quality over quantity.

I have memories about believing I was a girl when I was 4.

I have no memories of my early childhood.  Even the things I do remember from my later childhood that might have suggested back then that I was transgender, do not constitute saying with certainty that it must have been that.  Sure, it could be suggested, but as far as I am concerned, it would only be a state of denial I would be living in as back then transsexualism did not register with me whatsoever; I had no clue of its existence.  For all I know, back then I may have just simply not been interested in typical masculine activities, having nothing to do with gender dysphoria.  And actually, I will bet if someone were to have asked me back then if I wanted to be a girl, I would have flat out told them absolutely not.  As well, it has been said before but I will say it again since I am a parent; if you have children, at some point you filled the male role in not just a relationship, but in your life as well.  If I always felt I was in the wrong body, I do not think I would intentionally get in a relationship prior to transitioning, knowing I would be perceived as a guy in the relationship, and even furthermore get the girl pregnant (for some, multiple times) lol...seriously, come on.  It is purely denial for a good majority, nothing more nothing less.

Edit:  Tidiness.

Quote from: Lily on December 05, 2011, 10:16:32 PM
I have memories about believing I was a girl when I was 4.

i've had that on multiple occassions as well, but it didn't change anything other than the fact that i thought i was a boy who felt more like a girl at the time, and there was some way i could make it work. later on i found out there was no way. flash forward to now, and i am now happily fulltime. there's no more meat to it than that.

Kia Ora,

In a sense one has 'always' been 'herself'...Who else could she be but herself...

Straight acting macho-Tomboyish- Effeminate,  just one of 'her' many selves in survival mode....   

Metta Zenda

Quote from: stldrmgrl on December 05, 2011, 10:25:40 PM
I have no memories of my early childhood either.  Even the things I do remember from my later childhood that now might have suggested back then that I was transgender, doesn't mean I can say with certainty that it must have been that.  Hell, for all I know, back then I really just wasn't into some typical masculine activities.  The fact of the matter is no matter how much I questioned why I was the way I was, I still went on living as a guy.  Like I said, just because I know what I am now, doesn't mean I was back then even though coincidentally my personality back then related to that of being slightly transgender.  Sure, it could be suggested, but as far as I'm concerned it'd only be a state of denial I'd be living in.  And actually, I'll bet if someone were to have asked me back then if I wanted to be a girl, I'd flat out tell them absolutely not.  As well, it's been said before and I'll say it again since I am a parent...if you have children, at some point you filled the male role in not just a relationship, but in your life.  If I always felt I was in the wrong body, I don't think I'd intentionally get in a relationship prior to transitioning, knowing I'd be perceived as a guy in the relationship, and even furthermore get the girl pregnant (for some, multiple times) lol...seriously, come on.  It's purely denial for a good majority, nothing else.

^^^^^^This x 100000000000000000

Hindsight is always 20/20. I think back to when I was four or five, and I can understand those memories to be signs that I was actually a girl. But I had no way of understanding that as a child. Some people can, others can't. Hell, I remember telling my mom that maybe I'd be the first person in our family to get a sex change. I was seven, by the way.

I still played the male role. I ran from being a woman. I ran hard and fast, and with an extreme amount of shame and self loathing. It was fear of losing everyone and everything, and a fear of not being able to enjoy everything that did actually make me happy. I played football, and I lifted weights. I was brutal and successful as a man.

And honestly, having a child, I correct people when they tell me I am my daughter's mother. I, for one, would never take that title away from another woman, especially one who earned it, and more importantly, my daughter calls me "daddy". I am HONORED to be called that.

I don't really know where I am going with this post, except that I hope we don't all start to try and validate ourselves over others, especially over something as trivial as "when I knew I was x". We can only know and transition, when we know and can transition. That is the simple, damning truth of our experience. And we are all equally valid, no matter when we realized it, or when we decided to do something about it.
Honestly, our roles as men and women, are not all that different. Especially during my generation.

Quote from: stldrmgrl on December 05, 2011, 10:25:40 PM
It is purely denial for a good majority, nothing more nothing less.

Edit:  Tidiness.

Isn't it just the silliest thing that people have different perspectives and lived different lives? Blanketed statements are so much fun!

Oh by the way, there might be some people on this forum that may have gotten into a serious relationship with the intent to rid of their tg thoughts. Jus' sayin'!

@ Dresden Doll, sorry your post was horribly confusing to me. Are you saying that you've wanted srs since you were 7, but you don't believe that you "became" tg until the moment you decided it was time to transition? You are right about one thing though, for you it may not matter when the thoughts may have come about, but it just might matter to others. It's unfortunate, but some may have the convenience of validating themselves, although it may seem like that might not be the case for you. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to transition with a family.

Quote from: MADI! on December 06, 2011, 03:50:35 AM
Isn't it just the silliest thing that people have different perspectives and lived different lives? Blanketed statements are so much fun!

I see nothing from within my statement that suggests it is blanketed.  My word choice is very clear, "a good majority"; a good majority does not encompass everyone.

Quote from: MADI! on December 06, 2011, 03:50:35 AM
Oh by the way, there might be some people on this forum that may have gotten into a serious relationship with the intent to rid of their tg thoughts. Jus' sayin'!

Yes, I was one of them.  I had a son and got married in 2008.  I was experiencing high levels of dysphoria at that point but had no knowledge of transsexualism or transitioning, therefore attempted to shrug off my confusing and conflicting emotions.  By doing this, I consciously accepted the male role and fulfilled it up until it could not be controlled any longer.  Once I learned of transsexualism, it didn't all of the sudden mean "I always knew" simply because the emotions I felt prior to were relevant (knowledge at a later date does not expunge the fact there was prior confusion).  Ending point?  If I knew for absolute certainty and accepted completely that I was transgender and wanted to transition, there is absolutely no way I would have gotten involved in a relationship where I would be perceived as male; the idea otherwise is simply ludicrous.

What is been shared plus what have been discussed in other threads about "womanhood," "femininity," and sexual orientation  has made me think about the following example -I hope I am not to crude.

Say i kidnap a heterosexual XY-male (normal male in everyway), I exploit my superior intellect and surgical skills and I remove his testis and perform a vaginoplasty, and loaded him with E until he grows some breasts.  He heals perfectly.

The surgery or HRT has not changed his brain or his mind (Kia ora Zenda) and he is still sexually attracted to females is he a transwoman lesbian ?

Does his vagina makes him a female ?

I think is a safe bet to say that  despite his external genitalia, he consider himself a male, it is all in his the head, yes ?

This  silly example  brings home the foolishness of trying to define your gender by anatomical  characteristics or by sexual orientation

Quote from: Jen61 on December 06, 2011, 10:18:25 AM
I think is a safe bet to say that  despite his external genitalia, he consider himself a male, it is all in his the head, yes ?

This  silly example  brings home the foolishness of trying to define your gender by anatomical  characteristics or by sexual orientation

I wasn't going to reply to this thread even though I fit it, because it is just 'my' sides attempt to be ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou which i believe is wrong  This thread, the ->-bleeped-<- one, the were you gay before, and even how old were you are divisive. In the end if you feel you are a transsexual then you ARE. Just like Jen61 said above it is all in your head.   We have to stand together or we'll ALL fall. Don't derive your worth from making others less.  We need to work together to get a real ENDA and DOMA. Before the straight trans women say I don't need DOMA, what if you lived in TN where you cannot change your birth certificate. The irony here is that a lesbian trans woman can marry a woman but a straight trans woman cannot marry a man. We all need our rights protected and we are too few as it is.

If you say you are trans then I have no right to say you aren't because of some condition. We are all different and we all had different levels of acceptance from family and society.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 06, 2011, 10:18:25 AM
Does his vagina makes him a female ?

I think is a safe bet to say that  despite his external genitalia, he consider himself a male, it is all in his the head, yes ?

This  silly example  brings home the foolishness of trying to define your gender by anatomical  characteristics or by sexual orientation

Well, let me answer this with another question. Do you think he would want his penis back? 

Quote from: Jeneva on December 06, 2011, 10:43:57 AM
In the end if you feel you are a transsexual then you ARE.

No, you're not. Transsexuality is something that you are born with. It is true that only the person him- or herself can tell whether he or she is transsexual or not, but people make mistakes. People sometimes have it wrong. All transsexual regretters thought at one point in their life that they were transsexual, and they were wrong.

And I believe this is a major problem in the trans community today. It is ok to support people, to give them that push to transition if they are afraid. But it is not allowed to call them out if you doubt them, because then you are put in the ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou group, and you may even be banned from forums. I think this is dangerous, because some people do need to be stopped and should be warned, but all they will hear now is that "If you say that you are transsexual then you are." I think this is a dangerous development that will end up people getting hurt that could have been stopped in time.

Quote from: Joandelynn on December 06, 2011, 10:57:27 AM
Well, let me answer this with another question. Do you think he would want his penis back? 

No, you're not. Transsexuality is something that you are born with. It is true that only the person him- or herself can tell whether he or she is transsexual or not, but people make mistakes. People sometimes have it wrong. All transsexual regretters thought at one point in their life that they were transsexual, and they were wrong.

And I believe this is a major problem in the trans community today. It is ok to support people, to give them that push to transition if they are afraid. But it is not allowed to call them out if you doubt them, because then you are put in the ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou group, and you may even be banned from forums. I think this is dangerous, because some people do need to be stopped and should be warned, but all they will hear now is that "If you say that you are transsexual then you are." I think this is a dangerous development that will end up people getting hurt that could have been stopped in time.

i must add that multiply personality disorder come sometimes with more than one gender in one, in the endyou are whay you feel, but what you feel can be measliding, just like for many was misleading pretending to be a man.

I must also notice that all this emphasy on being ->-bleeped-<-r than you, was conducted by few of us perpetrating this internal battle. Evidence says transgender women are born with this condition, so all are equals, discovering, knowing it feeling it, eventually suppressing it, pretending to be male, are just life's chance that make the journey more or less bearable.

Many people get into suicidal thoughts for this pain, how could someone loose time in the " i am more woman, i always knew, i always was " topic?

Let's all be sensitive and never forget that there are serious battles, that our identity comes from years of discrimination, and that we  all must do something for the community. life isn't just glitter, altough glitter is sexy...

Quote from: Joandelynn on December 06, 2011, 10:57:27 AM
No, you're not. Transsexuality is something that you are born with. It is true that only the person him- or herself can tell whether he or she is transsexual or not, but people make mistakes. People sometimes have it wrong. All transsexual regretters thought at one point in their life that they were transsexual, and they were wrong.

And I believe this is a major problem in the trans community today. It is ok to support people, to give them that push to transition if they are afraid. But it is not allowed to call them out if you doubt them, because then you are put in the ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou group, and you may even be banned from forums. I think this is dangerous, because some people do need to be stopped and should be warned, but all they will hear now is that "If you say that you are transsexual then you are." I think this is a dangerous development that will end up people getting hurt that could have been stopped in time.

And who is supposed to stop them?  Are you seriously saying you can know someone more than themselves. Yes they may be wrong but so could you. We ALL should be warned, but NO ONE should be able to stop anyone else. We all make mistakes, but if that is way you feel then you alone can decide that. I did not say 'says' they are trans, but rather said FEELS. The transition process is supposed to give you time to evaluate your feelings and once you understand them as much as you can at that moment because they are your feelings NO one else can say they are wrong.

Quote from: Jeneva on December 06, 2011, 12:04:21 PM
And who is supposed to stop them?  Are you seriously saying you can know someone more than themselves. Yes they may be wrong but so could you. We ALL should be warned, but NO ONE should be able to stop anyone else. We all make mistakes, but if that is way you feel then you alone can decide that. I did not say 'says' they are trans, but rather said FEELS. The transition process is supposed to give you time to evaluate your feelings and once you understand them as much as you can at that moment because they are your feelings NO one else can say they are wrong.

For sure! And that is what I was meaning to say as well. My apologies for it not being (two hours of sleep is never fun ). People (including myself!) often get so caught up on what everyone else is doing that they sometimes forget what's going on in their own lives. We are all here to support each other, and not point out what they're doing is wrong, unless it harms someone. But, I do think that is important that if we are trying to support each other, to keep an open-mind to both sides of every story.

This is what comes to mind sometimes when I read these forums;

Bob Newhart-Stop It

I had to think a while before trying to answer this thread.

First, I'm going to be a little picky about vocabulary. I like the definitions of fe/male and wo/man as offered by Susan Stryker in the book Transgender History. According to her, fe/male refer to anatomy and wo/man refer to gender.

So, at this time I refer to myself as male-bodied woman.

I can honestly say that probably between the ages of 5 and 7 I remember thinking, "Oh, well, I was born a boy I'll just have to be a boy." In puberty, I remember wish and even praying that I'd get some strange disease where the only possible cure would have been a "sex change," as I thought of it in those terms at that time. Later, I'd think I was just so sexually attracted to girls that there were times when I wanted to be one.

I became a father at age 19 and took the roles of husband and father very seriously. I would not think about gender, mine or otherwise, for many years after that.

I'm in transition now. I have no problem with my past as a boy and man, though I'm not very happy about my maleness (my anatomy). But, I'm in transition. My son calls me Connie and my daughter calls me dad. She knows that I am quite comfortable being a woman who's called dad. I guess it's me holding on to that part of me that used to identify as genderqueer, as we queer the idea of what a father can be.

So, know I was not always Connie. But, I can say that Connie has been with me all my life, and that David will probably still be in there till the day I die. That's just who I am.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 06, 2011, 10:18:25 AM
What is been shared plus what have been discussed in other threads about "womanhood," "femininity," and sexual orientation  has made me think about the following example -I hope I am not to crude.

Say i kidnap a heterosexual XY-male (normal male in everyway), I exploit my superior intellect and surgical skills and I remove his testis and perform a vaginoplasty, and loaded him with E until he grows some breasts.  He heals perfectly.

The surgery or HRT has not changed his brain or his mind (Kia ora Zenda) and he is still sexually attracted to females is he a transwoman lesbian ?

Does his vagina makes him a female ?

I think is a safe bet to say that  despite his external genitalia, he consider himself a male, it is all in his the head, yes ?

This  silly example  brings home the foolishness of trying to define your gender by anatomical  characteristics or by sexual orientation

This is practically what Money did with David Reimer and it ultimately made him kill himself.

The question is not when did you know you were female but what type of female! Are you the stereotypical fantasy of a female that a male has in their minds or the stereotypical image of a female as a female.

most females want to look pretty but not be used or mistreated and most want to be respected and want love over sex
Most females do not use oversexed images as images they aspire to be like unless of course they suffered under male role models who try to control their every thought and action.

Kia Ora,

I totally agree with what many here are saying, that is  one 'psycho' sexual identity  "Is all in the mind/head !" I have never disputed this 'fact' ...

However just in case Jen got the wrong end of the stick with my last post, what I mean by it was 'all' those who end up transitioning[with or without surgery] and finding 'contentment' in doing so,
have in a sense 'always' been themselves[M2F-herself F2M-himself] even when taking on the male/female persona of sorts...Some times we just don't realise this until further into our self acceptance journey...

BTW Jen, I'm not too sure whether or not you are aware of this 'fact', HRT does slightly alter the brain structure to some extent,[by shrinking the hypothalamus]...But I'm also 100% sure it does not change a person sexual orientation-however the sheer fact when starting HRT one is finally on the road to becoming ones true self, it might help[like a placebo effect] 'free it up' so to speak, but I don't believe it miraculously has the power to change one from hetero to homo or visa versa...But I could be wrong...But I doubt it...

If this was the case surely the homosexual in deep denial would jump at the chance to take some T or E to make them 'straight'...

Happy 'Mindfulness'

Metta Zenda