Quote from: Julie Marie on December 07, 2011, 10:37:46 PM

QuoteQuote from: Beth Andrea on Yesterday at 15:04:59

    "...far too many homosexuals pedophiles have been caught molesting children for the theory to be false"

FIFY

The point I was making is that some people (not me) make the assertion that pedophiles = men who molest boys = gay men.

Yes, I understand that not all pedophiles are gay men (although some certainly are, just because there are so damn many pedo's) but there are those who justify their homophobia by pointing this out.

Just like in this thread, there are those who justify their conservatiphobia by pointing out "well researched" articles (yet don't link to them so we can make our own minds up) that make outrageous claims like "homophobes get sexually aroused by watching gay male porn."

Would a conservative even consent to watching gay male porn for any reason? Often, the subjects of such studies are college students, who are hard up (err....no pun intended) for money...and if word got out it was a sex study that involved gay porn and social leaning (liberal or conservative), it's been my experience that liberals would go and pose as conservatives in order to skew the results. (Based on personal admissions to me FTF by liberals)

So, to repeat...got a link to the original study?

ETA: The original link was to an article, and the article did have a link to the study. I have some reading to do...

ETA 2: The link is to an abstract...

QuoteAbstract

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

...and to read the entire report one has to purchase it. I'll purchase, and get back to the thread. One thing that caught my attention is the statement, "Only the homophobic...showed an increase...to male homosexual stimuli."

"Only"? Does this mean "all" homophobic men, or what? Out of 35 subjects? (BTW,  a single study that has just 64 total subjects cannot be called "definitive" by any means.) Rarely does a study show 100% cause-and-effect, especially when dealing with human behavior. So was it "only" 34 men? "Only" 12? Or "only" 1? We don't know yet, because we haven't read the report...but the conclusion, that homophobia is associated with homosexual arousal, is not supported by the abstract.

Research, schmearsearch.  You can get two highly respected, so-called professionals on the transgender condition who completely disagree with each other.  And they will have tons of documents backing up their position.  The study of the human mind is not a science.  It's a guessing game.  There are so many factors involved in what makes someone who they are it is humanly impossible to ever know exactly what they are.

But there are things we do know.  We know most people seem to be happy in their birth gender.  We know some people aren't.  And we know there are homophobic people who come to a point in their life when they come out as gay.  Those are facts all the research in the world will never change.

I know people helped by therapy.  I know people hurt by therapy.  In most cases of the former, therapy helped them accept who they are.  For those I have known who need to know WHY they are the way they are and can't accept themselves, it seems they spend a lifetime in therapy.  Gay homophobes can't accept who they are.  And society doesn't help them.

"Based upon 60+ years studying the human animal, I have come to the conclusion most psychological problems humans suffer is the result of social pressure to be something they are not." - Julie Marie

Beth, what I'm saying is it is unfair to talk about child molesters and use only the term "homosexual" when doing so.  Pedophiles molest children.  These people are pedophiles.  Some may be gay, some may be straight and some may even be trans.  But to omit "pedophile" when labeling child molesters and only use the term "homosexual" sends the wrong message.  That is a tactic used by homophobes to garner support for their hatred of gays.  I'm sure you cringe when a man in a dress molests a child and the media labels him transgender.  So I'm just saying we have to choose our words carefully if we ever wish to end the LGBT negative stigma. 

pedos quite often are married fathers so they would reject the 'homosexual' label.
Labelling them bisexual doesn't really sun them up
On the other hand boy scout leaders, school teachers and priests in seminaries are serial pedos and homosexual with other priests and scout leaders so is pedo the correct label?


Priceless quote on a website about homophobia@  George Rekers wasn't gay-he had a son.

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 08, 2011, 10:42:15 AM
pedos quite often are married fathers so they would reject the 'homosexual' label.
Labelling them bisexual doesn't really sun them up
On the other hand boy scout leaders, school teachers and priests in seminaries are serial pedos and homosexual with other priests and scout leaders so is pedo the correct label?


Priceless quote on a website about homophobia@  George Rekers wasn't gay-he had a son.

As only ome pedophiles are married, and many others are not, that alone can therefore not be used to determin their oreinatation any less than the same can be used to determine orientation amongst Non-pedophiles.
Some pedohiles are exclusively attacted to only boys, while others are exclusively attracted to only girls, so labeling them Homosexual, Heterosexual or Bisexual, would be fully correct, as all these lables refer to what sex or gender the person is attracted to- not the age.

Also, the same is true for female pedophiles aswell, but with the difference that the female pedophiles that actually crosses the line, usually does so foremostly to infants up to the age of perhaps 5 or so, while male pedophhiles tends to point their attention to older children.

Why don't people understand that not all pedophiles are child molesters and not all child molesters are pedophiles? A pedophile is someone who's attracted to prepubescent children.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 08, 2011, 11:07:25 AM
Some pedohiles are exclusively attacted to only boys, while others are exclusively attracted to only girls, so labeling them Homosexual, Heterosexual or Bisexual, would be fully correct, as all these lables refer to what sex or gender the person is attracted to- not the age.

Little kids don't have any sexual dimorphism, or pheromones, you can dress up either as the opposite gender and nobody will know the difference, so I wouldn't say it's "fully" correct.

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 08, 2011, 07:35:41 AM
Used to be the round-earthers got killed by the flat-earthers and the sun-centrics got killed by the earth-centrics?

But if the round-earthers were to continue using the same kind of reasoning — "Far too many...for [my] theory to be false" — they would just be killing the oblate-spheroid-earthers, who would still be busy fighting the oblong-ellipsoid-earthers. Accepting that, in spite of the evidence, there is a chance your conclusion is wrong is what makes not only geodesy, but every other branch of science move forward.

As for the geo- and heliocentrism, it's not really a matter of right and wrong. It's just too different reference frames. Geocentrism requires a lot more math and fictitious forces to work, so we choose the more convenient model, heliocentrism.

We call that principle Occam's razor, and I think it can be invoked for the subject of this thread as well. What if there is no special link between homophobia and being turned on by gay porn? Perhaps can can be more simply explained by simple reactance instead?

[trigger warning]

Many pedophiles who use children of the same gender as themselves for sex do not self-identify as homosexual. Which is not surprising, since the act is one of "power over" rather than specifically about sex, so there's no point in thinking about it within the "normal" framework of consenting sexual acts. It's something else entirely. And as far as priests, scoutmasters, nuns and so forth go, it may also be a question of whom they have access to rather than any specific preference on their part.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on December 08, 2011, 05:07:59 PM
Why don't people understand that not all pedophiles are child molesters and not all child molesters are pedophiles? A pedophile is someone who's attracted to prepubescent children.

Little kids don't have any sexual dimorphism, or pheromones, you can dress up either as the opposite gender and nobody will know the difference, so I wouldn't say it's "fully" correct.

Doesn't matter, as those children no matter how undeveloped still have a Birth-assigned sex, a Birth-assigned Sex that Pedophiles can choose before another, then that per very definition makes the Lables Homo, Bi, or Heterosexual Pedophiles, fully correct aswell.

Quote from: Padma on December 08, 2011, 09:47:00 PM
[trigger warning]

Many pedophiles who use children of the same gender as themselves for sex do not self-identify as homosexual. Which is not surprising, since the act is one of "power over" rather than specifically about sex, so there's no point in thinking about it within the "normal" framework of consenting sexual acts. It's something else entirely. And as far as priests, scoutmasters, nuns and so forth go, it may also be a question of whom they have access to rather than any specific preference on their part.

Depends entirely on the Pedophile, really. Some do it because of the power, that is correct, but many, perhaps even the majority of pedophiles are pedophiles because that is simply their "Sexual Orientation", or how to put it, and as you cannot choose your orientation, then you can indeed think within the "normal" framework of Psychology regarding Pedophiles aswell.
The only reason that people feel that you shouldn't, is because it is such a loaded topic and, because it involves children. But that do not change reality.

There are lots of pedophiles that truly curses their orientation and feel truly devastated about it, and, on top of all, apart from their orientatoion itself, are- no matter how controversial it may seem- truly good people.
I have spoken to Pedophiles myself, and also met a few, and even if I cannot understand their attraction, I can nonetheless confirm that they a basically people like anyone else. Some are indeed bad and I would even say ruthless, while others are basically angels with a curse, that fully knows their 'curse' is not fitting and have never ever hurt a child during their lives, while yet others are neither but rather neutral.

Anyway, while I cannot understand their orientation per say, I nonetheless find it interesting and more research should be done on this.

[trigger warning...]

I think there is also quite a degree of 'repression' with regard to Paedophilia. I think it is mostly those cases that are seen, that either have it badly - or think they might just get away with it.

If a really honest survey was possible it would be shocking to learn just how much it may be present, and in particular in those that are so vehemently outspoken over the issue.
A parallel yet to 'Homophobic Men Most Aroused by Gay Male Porn'?

A similar shocking finding is for instance that every 3rd girl (in SA) was actually sexually molested, and by whom? The number of rapes per day, and by whom? Lastly the very high number of incest occurring between fathers and daughters.

There is a VERY large 'under the radar' real figure (Dunkelziffer) for all these social taboo issues, and often conveniently overlooked so as to maintain one's believe into a well functioning social structure.

As the saying goes: "Wer's glaubt wird selig ..."
Axélle

Quote from: Bishounen on December 09, 2011, 09:13:58 AM
Doesn't matter, as those children no matter how undeveloped still have a Birth-assigned sex, a Birth-assigned Sex that Pedophiles can choose before another, then that per very definition makes the Lables Homo, Bi, or Heterosexual Pedophiles, fully correct aswell.

It's a lot more complicated than that and it's not fully correct, but it doesn't matter. I'm just saying that our society has outright hatred for pedophiles, and that's not fair because they can't choose, and it doesn't help defend against child molesters when pretty much all pedophiles are forced deeply into the closet.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 09, 2011, 09:25:42 AM...as you cannot choose your orientation, then you can indeed think within the "normal" framework of Psychology regarding Pedophiles aswell.
The only reason that people feel that you shouldn't, is because it is such a loaded topic and, because it involves children. But that do not change reality.

I feel you are responding here to something I didn't actually say. What I was actually saying was that it's inappropriate and misleading to consider unconsensual sex with children (a tautology, since that's the only kind there is) within the "normal" framework of consensual adult sex - my point is to do with the issue of consensuality and personal responsibility, and the general assumption that the act is always primarily a sexual one. That is different from the point you're making, which is to do with sexuality/orientation and the demonisation of pedophiles.

It's astonishing how many men are obsessed with dick.

When I was young I didn't believe that homophobes were gay now I believe they are.

It's a compound condition. There is the orientation, which can be suppressed, and there is the appetite for sexual assault, which is untreatable and unmanageable.

Quote from: fionabell on December 09, 2011, 04:48:33 PM
It's astonishing how many men are obsessed with dick.

Oh my, yes! In Sweden we have a meme popular among teenage boys describing the practice of "ollning", rubbing the tip of one's penis against someone's property. It obviously hurts the perpetrator more than it hurts the victim. Is it really worth getting a UTI from your friend's dirty doorknob just to make him mildly uncomfortable? 

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 07, 2011, 01:40:40 PM

The research I have seen was very carefully done and not using plesmythingies. 
Far too many homophobes have been caught in homosex for the theory to be false.
If it offends you that is just too bad.   But facts is facts.

i would love to see that research, do you have a reference or link ?

Quote from: Jen61 on December 09, 2011, 06:00:11 PM
i would love to see that research, do you have a reference or link ?

Google "Republican homophobes."  That's a start.