I'm just going to come out and say it, FTM guys confuse me.

It's weird, and believe me it's not a grand statement on the "realness" of FTM dysphoria. I know you fellas struggle with all the same things we on the MTF side do, body image, fear, cost (probably more so), discrimination etc.

What I can't see, and I know this is stupid, is why anyone would want to be a man Obviously I am extremely biased in the other direction but I can't figure it out.

I am aware this is ridiculous, and I know some FTMs probably feel the same about MTFs. But when I look in the mirror I can't figure out the appeal of looking this way, (still very much male in appearance btw)

Even as I'm typing this I know its a pointless thing to post but for some reason I'm going to anyway. To anyone reading this I award one coupon to waste my time in a similar way to this, redeemable upon reading full post (voids any other promotion, one time waste per customer, T&Cs apply)

Claire

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 12, 2011, 08:04:41 AM. . . is why anyone would want to be a man Obviously I am extremely biased in the other direction but I can't figure it out.

i take offense! Because MEN are supposed to know better . . . but are just too stupid, greedy, lazy, disunited, immature, homophobic and selfish in own right, to actually DO anything about it!

I'm sorry Kiera I've read your post a few times over but I don't know what it is you mean Sorry

I'm more on the FtA side of things, but I feel the same way as you do (except about MTFs). I find it sooo hard to understand why anyone would want to be a woman. Not only to be a woman, but to go through such a huge amount of effort and pain to be a woman. I think women are beautiful, and wonderful, and special, and goddamnit I'm glad they exist but I hate 'being' one. To me, having a body that is somewhat closer to male just seems "easier." Not easier in a social sense, although I'm sure in some ways it is, but it just feels like it would all flow better for me - just infinitely more natural.

Caseyy I think you may have summed it up perfectly with the "more natural" comment.

I really didn't mean any offence by this I was just wondering if other people felt the same way because you so rarely hear anyone mention it.

And it all has to do with perception. Who do YOU perceive yourself to be? Not, what do I look like. These are two vastly different states; and usually opposed to each other.

If you are governed by, what you look like, in preference to how your instincts tell you who you are; yes, you could be in for some serious identity issues. However, if you are governed by what your instincts perceive you to be, rather than what you look like; your transition will be substantially easier.

Perception and instinct pervade every stratum of your existence. Both conscious and subconsciously. Like a wet sponge. There is water in every fibre of that sponge, even though you can't see it. If I don't like what I see I can always change the colour or shape of the sponge.

I too can change my exterior back to what it perceives itself to be. That is relatively easy, because the perception and instinct is already set up, ready to go.

"Nobody in there right mind" would go through the horrendous cataclysmic change required to transition; however a mind not in its right body would.

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 12, 2011, 08:04:41 AM

What I can't see, and I know this is stupid, is why anyone would want to be a man Obviously I am extremely biased in the other direction but I can't figure it out.

I am aware this is ridiculous, and I know some FTMs probably feel the same about MTFs. But when I look in the mirror I can't figure out the appeal of looking this way, (still very much male in appearance btw)

Even as I'm typing this I know its a pointless thing to post but for some reason I'm going to anyway. To anyone reading this I award one coupon to waste my time in a similar way to this, redeemable upon reading full post (voids any other promotion, one time waste per customer, T&Cs apply)

Claire

I didn't get it at first either. And to be perfectly honest, 'maleness' is still a very foreign, essentially alien concept to me, as I've only ever had the experience of being female. ~But it helps if you understand that FTMs don't want to be men—they are (already) men; and whether a person is a trans girl or a trans guy, we are all naturally driven to align the body to the mind for our well-being and sanity.

You have to imagine being raised as a girl, forced to be a girl, encouraged to be passive, encouraged to be pretty, encouraged to be attracted to only men, while possessing a body seemingly designed to be receptive and submissive (well, at least from the beginning).  You have to imagine what it felt like for the "other sex" to have dominated world history, with nearly every major figure in each field of study being male, and that you were this "other".   You even have to imagine yourself stripped of your memories of being forced to emulate masculinity to appease people, which may give us MtFs a source of hidden inner strength.

And once you've done that, you have to imagine being a male inside.  I can't imagine the pain they are forced to endure. 

Oh i know exactly what you are all saying. And that is what's so confusing in a way, I know why FTMs feel like they do. Essentially, and I am generalising, its the same as why MTFs want to be women. The confusing part is that I still don't "get" it. Like I can understand all the individual aspects but the whole thing together actually seems no more clear.

What I'm trying to say, now that I've thought more about it is that I can't empathize with wanting to be more manly. It doesn't seem "strange" as much as "foreign" if that makes any sense. Like I know why people do feel that way but it's not a feeling I could share even if I tried. Maybe thats a better way to put it.

Or maybe not I don't know.

Claire

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 15, 2011, 02:43:48 PM
Oh i know exactly what you are all saying. And that is what's so confusing in a way, I know why FTMs feel like they do. Essentially, and I am generalising, its the same as why MTFs want to be women. The confusing part is that I still don't "get" it. Like I can understand all the individual aspects but the whole thing together actually seems no more clear.

What I'm trying to say, now that I've thought more about it is that I can't empathize with wanting to be more manly. It doesn't seem "strange" as much as "foreign" if that makes any sense. Like I know why people do feel that way but it's not a feeling I could share even if I tried. Maybe thats a better way to put it.

Or maybe not I don't know.

Claire

It's the same with all men, cis or trans.  FTMs aren't the only guys who love being male.  Though I guess it's more pronounced from the MTF perspective because they are actively ridding themselves of the physical traits we long to have.

Personally, it's harder for me to empathize with cis men, since at least trans men have enough knowledge to reject having a female body.  With a cis man, how can they even differentiate what it's like to have the right or wrong body, if they've had nothing else?  Perhaps some have a partial female identity (not enough to be MTF though) or no gender identity at all, but are too insecure to fall out of a rigid category.  And had they been born in a female body, they wouldn't have had enough pressure to transition to male.

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 12, 2011, 08:04:41 AM.

What I can't see, and I know this is stupid, is why anyone would want to be a man

Have gay sex and you'll understand hun. Nothing beats two beautiful men doin each other.

Being a gay male is like the creme de la creme of manhood imho.

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 15, 2011, 02:43:48 PMWhat I'm trying to say, now that I've thought more about it is that I can't empathize with wanting to be more manly. It doesn't seem "strange" as much as "foreign" if that makes any sense. Like I know why people do feel that way but it's not a feeling I could share even if I tried. Maybe thats a better way to put it.

Or maybe not I don't know.

Claire

~You know, I can't help but be reminded of a scene from Seinfeld:

Elaine: "Whoa! Walking around naked? Ahh... that is not a good look for a man."
George: "Why not? It's a good look for a woman."
Elaine: "Well, the female body is a... work of art. The male body is
utilitarian, it's for gettin' around, like a jeep."
Jerry: "So you don't think it's attractive?"
Elaine: "It's hideous. The hair, the... the lumpiness. It's simian."
George: "Well, some women like it."
Elaine: "Hmm. Sickies."

But yeah, I understand exactly what you mean... ~Though I wouldn't worry too much about it; men have been confusing women since time immemorial.
Oh sure, I can engage in some people watching; I can try and study the males of the species as they go about their daily affairs—but as an outsider there will always be an element of utter mystery to the male psyche... Frankly, all we can do is generalize relatively poorly about a non-monolithic group. Or throw our hand up in the air and give up—which is the strategy I recommend.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 15, 2011, 03:39:20 PM
Have gay sex and you'll understand hun. Nothing beats two beautiful men doin each other.

Being a gay male is like the creme de la creme of manhood imho.

Many cis girls actually have the fantasy of being a guy just for that reason. Boys' Love manga can be pretty compelling. It feels strange to admit this, but I've actually had the same fantasies...  And yet, in reality I could never be 'gay' with a male in this body; my dysphoria would go through the roof! If I already (completely) had the body of a female, and could magically leap into the body of a random male stranger... Then sure, as in that situation I would be equivalent to a cis girl wishing she was a gay boy for a day so she can be 'gay' with a hot gay guy—which is awfully common, lol.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 03:17:10 AM

Many cis girls actually have the fantasy of being a guy just for that reason. Boys' Love manga can be pretty compelling. It feels strange to admit this, but I've actually had the same fantasies...  And yet, in reality I could never be 'gay' with a male in this body; my dysphoria would go through the roof! If I already (completely) had the body of a female, and could magically leap into the body of a random male stranger... Then sure, as in that situation I would be equivalent to a cis girl wishing she was a gay boy for a day so she can be 'gay' with a hot gay guy—which is awfully common, lol.

I don't read any manga or watch anime. But yeah, many women share your fantasy.

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 12, 2011, 08:04:41 AM
What I can't see, and I know this is stupid, is why anyone would want to be a man Obviously I am extremely biased in the other direction but I can't figure it out.

It's not a matter of wanting to be a man.  It's a matter of already being one, and wanting the body and role in society that goes with it.

That and the gay sex.  ;-)

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 12, 2011, 08:04:41 AM
I'm just going to come out and say it, FTM guys confuse me.

...

What I can't see, and I know this is stupid, is why anyone would want to be a man Obviously I am extremely biased in the other direction but I can't figure it out.

...

Claire

Well, that's the problem right there!

I understand the bias--I have it too--but understand that some people like things which may be strange and "yucky" to us...like with me and brussel sprouts...I can't stand the things. But other people just eat 'em right up.

I stare and marvel at this miracle...that people can actually like those little green cabbages! But then I remember that we all have different likes and dislikes, our nerves and minds are set up (and experienced) in a very personal way...ok, so some people like brussel sprouts...I like potatoes! (My son CANNOT stand potatoes! LOL)

Quote from: Beverley on December 16, 2011, 04:14:20 AM
Of course you do not understand it - neither do I and for exactly the same reason.  If we found maleness 'OK' we would not be in transition. I hope they are happy with their outcome and I intend to make sure I am happy with mine.

I know people who actually LIKE cheese. Cheese? Milk that went off? Yeucchhhhh!!!!!! How could anyone like such stuff?

Beverley

Oh wow...LOL! We both did a food comparison!!!

Cheese = yummy!
Plain white milk = blech!

Telyna nailed it, even though this wasn't supposed to be an argument

Quote from: Alexmakenoise on December 24, 2011, 12:51:32 AM
It's not a matter of wanting to be a man.  It's a matter of already being one, and wanting the body and role in society that goes with it.

That and the gay sex.  ;-)

I have no idea what it is like to be a woman. I will be the first to admit that. I am merely my own interpretation of it...and hun, my interpretation is FABULOUS!!!

Omg, was that gay?

Quote from: Claire <as crystal> on December 12, 2011, 08:04:41 AM
I'm just going to come out and say it, FTM guys confuse me.

It's weird, and believe me it's not a grand statement on the "realness" of FTM dysphoria. I know you fellas struggle with all the same things we on the MTF side do, body image, fear, cost (probably more so), discrimination etc.

What I can't see, and I know this is stupid, is why anyone would want to be a man Obviously I am extremely biased in the other direction but I can't figure it out.

I am aware this is ridiculous, and I know some FTMs probably feel the same about MTFs. But when I look in the mirror I can't figure out the appeal of looking this way, (still very much male in appearance btw)

Even as I'm typing this I know its a pointless thing to post but for some reason I'm going to anyway. To anyone reading this I award one coupon to waste my time in a similar way to this, redeemable upon reading full post (voids any other promotion, one time waste per customer, T&Cs apply)

Claire

Lol it is ridiculous. I love your last paragraph, btw.

Cheers from the other side.