My son is transgendered, which is why I stayed here and registered after finding the site by wildly unrelated means.  I'll hope that it's also ok for parents to be asking questions.  My FTM son is more than a little stereotypical male in terms of talking about his feelings, so perhaps some of you can fill in some blanks for me as I go along here.

The prompting question/comment is the 'can I pass' threads.  I understand that this can be a very serious concern for a lot of reasons for people in the trans community, and absolutely don't want to step on anybody's toes or feelings.  Keep that in mind if something looks unkind.

My thought, though, which may lead to a suggestion, is that most of the photos I saw in checking through the thread were 'obviously' of the targeted gender.  Not really a question (to me, from where I sit, and wearing my shoes of life).  If the person was FTM, they looked male, and if MTF, they looked female.  No problem.  That brought to mind a different comment -- from a transwoman I was talking to at a PFLAG meeting.  She was mentioning that she could tell pretty quickly, almost at a glance, who was trans and who wasn't.  I don't know if she was really that accurate.  But, I can see how one might be, after practice and being concerned about it.

The good news I bear, then, is that in asking the 'can I pass' question in a trans forum is probably asking your most challenging possible audience.  Few cis folks are looking very closely. 

For a while after my son came out (only a little over a year go) to me, I spent some time looking at people around me to see if I could tell who were the transmen and transwomen.  Even in PFLAG meetings where I knew for certainty that some present were trans (say a meeting for parents who were transgendered, which my wife and I went to on grounds of being parents of a transgender child), I would have been hard pressed to get a high score on identifying who was who as to trans or not.  Ok, the 6'3+" transwomen I could tell pretty easily.  But height is no guarantee, as one of the most striking (cis-)women I've known is 6'1".

And that's another point on what happens even if cis people did look closely.  Take my ex-wife, me, and my stepson.  My ex-wife is built like a (short) linebacker.  Also heavy brow ridges, and heavy bones.  I've got very gracile bones, and behaviorially was much more 'feminine' than my ex (meaning that, say, I was more aware of feelings and talked about them, even if far less than, say, my sisters).  My son, at this point in transition, on the other hand, looks like a guy and (always did behave so) behaves more stereotypically guy-like than I do.  So, of the three of us, the one you're possibly least likely to pick as trans is the one who is.

So my thoughts, I suppose, are:
* You're (the trans community) perhaps the most difficult set of judges as to whether someone 'passes'
* Cis people don't pay much attention, and are pretty lousy judges even if they did

A question is,
* should I be saying much to my son about the fact that he definitely looks, sounds, etc. like a guy?

He definitely does.  And I've tried to be good about the pronouns.  But I'm also minded of something Caroline (the transwoman I mentioned above) said about one of the best things I could do for/with him was to take him to a bar and have a drink with him.  (which I eventually did, at a restaurant/pub/bar in Castro district SF (he's also gay)).  That isn't _why_ I was there with him, but, if that was a good thing to do for more reason than just having a place to eat and drink, I'm glad I did.

Similarly, if it's likely something that he'll appreciate -- to hear that he looks like a perfectly ordinary guy* -- then I'd definitely like to be mentioning it.  Or, if it's likely to be an annoyance, I'll go ahead with not mentioning it.  Since you don't know my son, I'm not expecting perfection in your predictions.  But if you can say why it would/wouldn't be good, I can decide how that applies to my son and I'll take my chances.

* Granted that I'm biased, and I think he is a particularly good looking guy.  Much better, certainly, than me.  But you get the idea.

There was/is a thread going on around here somewhere where a cis couple (i think, anyway) was offering their opinions on "passing" because of exactly the reason you mention. As trans people, we are our own worst judges. Definitely agree.

To the question about commenting on your son's appearance, I dunno. It's definitely nice to just be perceived, treated and complimented as your target gender. But don't fake it or overdo it, I guess? I mean, quite a few people in my environment gave me make-up when I started presenting as female, and they really stressed/overpronounced my new name. It felt a little silly to me. Felt fake.

Quote from: Eve87 on December 13, 2011, 04:24:25 PMThere was/is a thread going on around here somewhere where a cis couple (i think, anyway) was offering their opinions on "passing" because of exactly the reason you mention.

Yeah, I saw that thread too, and recently tried to find it, but had no luck.  If anyone knows where it went, can you let me know?  Preferably via PM so it doesn't further hijack cisdads thread here.

/end thread hijack

I want to thank you for being such a good father to your son. I am of the same opinion that I think after two years I have gotten very good at recognizing transpeople, but I am never confident enough to say for sure and I have been thankful I didn't say anything on a few occasions.

I think you can on occasion be supportive and say that your son looks particularly handsome, but it isn't the kind of thing men normally do and it can seem excessive if done very often.

Huggs

Emily

Yeah, trans people are absolutely the worst judges. I don't think cispeople think too much about what someone's biological sex is - they just take it at face value. Sucks for people who have a heck of a time passing, but for those who have been on hormones for a while or naturally have features of their target sex, it's good news.

Quote from: cisdad on December 13, 2011, 03:55:30 PM
Similarly, if it's likely something that he'll appreciate -- to hear that he looks like a perfectly ordinary guy* -- then I'd definitely like to be mentioning it.  Or, if it's likely to be an annoyance, I'll go ahead with not mentioning it.  Since you don't know my son, I'm not expecting perfection in your predictions.  But if you can say why it would/wouldn't be good, I can decide how that applies to my son and I'll take my chances.

* Granted that I'm biased, and I think he is a particularly good looking guy.  Much better, certainly, than me.  But you get the idea.

Everyone is different, obviously. But I hate hearing "you look like a perfectly ordinary girl." I'm supposed to take "ordinary" as a compliment? Screw that. Tell him he looks sharp/handsome/good/gorgeous/or whatever the appropriate equivalent is in your regional dialect.

Good on you for being awesome and supportive. Having your parents behind you makes all the difference in the world.

cisdad,

First of all, I can't say how wonderful it is that you are supporting your son. So many of us are completely cut off from our families. Some are more fortunate.

The real truth is that we can spot others easier than others. BUT, none of us can ever be completely correct in our guesses. I learned long ago not to concern myself with such issues. I've never embarrassed myself by asking anyone but I have often been proven wrong in my self thought questions.

I know that a lot of us want to be pretty in a feminine way or handsome in a masculine sort of way. Sometimes, that is the sort of confirmation we are seeking. It's also a very difficult time to leave the house for the first time. So we ask each other.

Take care of you son. I'm sure that you and he love each other very much.

Cindi

Thanks folks.  I'll back off the writing after this, but did see some room to share thoughts.

One is, now, I'm sad.  Not that you're making me so.  No blame there.  But I think (hope, wish, whatever) the standards for being a good father should be higher than "Don't reject your kid when he comes out as trans."  I, not so humbly, think I pass some higher bars than that.  But, goodness, I wish the world were such that you could assume that your father would love you whether you were trans or not, gay or not, something else or not!

I see, with Rose Tyler posting, that I'm not the only Dr. Who fan around.

Absolutely I won't say things forced or untrue to my son.  If I didn't hang myself, my son would do it for me.  But there are a lot of true things I could say to him.  One of them is, he's a good looking guy (insofar as I'm a judge, which isn't very far -- my wife has some comments about that).

Thanks Cindi.  Yes we do.  My wife (his step-step-mom) also loves him a lot, and, I think now, vice versa.  When he came out to my and my family, it was a huge issue for him.  But really a non-issue for us -- we knew he was a good person, and that is what mattered.  His gender identification, for us, didn't matter.  The fact that he'd felt so out of place for so many years did matter, and was not good news.  His finally coming out was very good news indeed.

'Leaving the house the first time' is exactly what I mean by way of mentioning that there's more than what I think involved.  No matter what I think, even if I'm right about the outside world, a trans person leaving the house for the first time in their new, more correct, presentation, is the one actually living it.  Not me.  It's a huge thing (not that I know first hand, but my guessing says) to do so.  Gaining some confidence from a relatively safe area like here first is absolutely sensible.

cisdad,

You should realize that your son will not have issues in public. At the very worst some might assume he's a lesbian and no one even cares. No one would say anything. It's not the same for those going the other way.  What your son will be looking for is affirmation in public. If he interacts with other people, suggest to him to get his name out right away and to act natural. He'll be fine. Really.

And, no matter what has gone on, you are a very loving father. Just from the words you have left here. I hearby declare that you are!

Also, please, feel free to post here whenever you wish. We welcome you with open hearts.

Cindi

Cisdad:

First off, I want to say that it makes me feel at ease to see you supporting your son. As a transguy myself (and a gay one to boot) I would love to have such a supporting father. Your son is very lucky. In reading your posts (several of them I had posted on too) I can tell that you love him. I don't know him, but I think I am safe in saying that your support and love mean the world to him.

In giving him feed back on how he looks/presents, etc., in my opinion, I am sure he would like to hear your feedback. If you think he is a handsome guy, tell him so! My partner tells me I look like a handsome guy and whenever I feel unsure, I just remember what he said and I feel like I am on top of the world. If my dad told me I was a handsome guy, I would be dancing on the moon.

Please stay around! It is nice for me as a gay transguy to see your responses, and I can certainly say that Susan's has proven itself to be very a welcoming place. You seem like a nice man, and I don't think any of us would mind. Just like Miss Cindi Jones said, I believe that you are very welcome here.

Thanks Cindi, Ayden for the reassuring welcomes.  As people started responding, I was getting that sense also.

My mother always said "Don't start an argument you want to lose."  So I won't take up the one about me being a good father.  (I don't actually disagree, just wish that loving my son wasn't a sufficient qualification.)

Cindi: I'm not as optimistic about reaction to lesbians as you are.  I've heard too much about attacks on lesbians for comfort there (maybe it's a sign of my age?).  I'm more comfortable in that I'm pretty confident my son really does look like a guy to anybody.

QuoteOne is, now, I'm sad.  Not that you're making me so.  No blame there.  But I think (hope, wish, whatever) the standards for being a good father should be higher than "Don't reject your kid when he comes out as trans."  I, not so humbly, think I pass some higher bars than that.  But, goodness, I wish the world were such that you could assume that your father would love you whether you were trans or not, gay or not, something else or not!

When I came out to my dad, he listened quietly while I explained that I'd seen a therapist, been diagnosed with GID and I'd be starting hormones in a few weeks. When I reached the end and choked out "I'm a girl," I was staring at the floor, crying and shaking with nerves. I heard him get up and then he pulled me out of my chair, hugged me so tight the air all squeezed out of my lungs, and said he'd love me and support me no matter what.

Second hardest thing I've ever done in my life, and one of the most important memories I'll ever have. It may not seem so big from your side of the equation, but it means more to me than I can put into words. I'd never have survived transition without the support of my family. Give yourself some credit, mate.

  Sarah.  Have no fear, I'm not rejecting some credit. 

Had my son come out in person, I'd have done much as your dad did.  Since it was email, I did the email equivalent.  I did realize that for my son it was huge (not least because the email said so), so I was a lot more emphatic in the email and subsequent phone call than I would have been otherwise. 

For similar reasons I also, after verifying that it was ok with him, told family about it and suggested they write him directly on their reactions.  He was overwhelmed, and surprised, by the volume and positivity of response.  The surprise is why I made the suggestion.  Every family member was supportive, as I'd expected, and he had not.

And you say second hardest thing in your life?  Dare I ask what beats it out?

Quote from: cisdad on December 14, 2011, 12:55:04 PM
And you say second hardest thing in your life?  Dare I ask what beats it out?

The hardest thing I've ever done? Walk into a gender therapist's office for the first time and request assessment to start HRT. A year and three weeks ago.

Happy Anniversary! 

I hope you celebrated it.  I'm finding it a good thing to celebrate big decisions that changed my life.  Sometimes just to consider how things have changed since I started down that new path.  Chocolate isn't always a bad idea either.

Honestly, I think as a father to son compliment, it would be amazing for your child to hear that they pass excellently in their desired gender, I think it'd be one of the best things for a young FTM to hear; it's also truly stunning and amazing that you so freely support your teenager with his natural self, you'll be a parent who is loved by him for an eternity to come. Now, as always, every MTF or FTM can have some self-doubts about wether they pass well or not, or how handsome or pretty they are in their desired gender, so it's always a good thing to supply a healthy dose of compliments.

However, another tough thing to know as a parent is that sometimes, Trans people have very personal and strong needs when it comes to our bodies and faces, and things like hormone therapy, breast reduction surgery, and facial feminization/masculinization surgery are all steps that the majority of us face at some time in our lives; even as special as your child may be, if they express a very strong urge to change something surgically or medically, and they persist to express that need with respect and honesty, always remember to hear them out and do what their eyes truly show would make them happy, if it is a possibility for you. As always, the love you give your child will be repayed triplefold when your child speaks to you and sees you regularly his whole entire life, while many of the hateful parents out there never see their child again till the day they die.

R+T:  I didn't say he was a teenager.  He's not that young any more.  Somehow, and more surprising to me, neither am I.  His path has taken longer than many here*.  I'm just glad that he's finally embracing who he is, and (it turns out) always has been.  He's happier now, which is the main thing for me.

We've talked about hormones and surgeries.  He was initially uncomfortable talking about the surgeries (something about 'talking about ... parts ... with dad' :-) so I told him I'd be ready any time he was.  Some time later, we did talk about it, and I'm supporting his decision.

* and yay for you!  One thing I'd do with a time machine is shave off 10-20 years of my son's internal pain and turmoil due to how long it took to come out, and his concern about how I'd react.

Digressing, or maybe not, whether trans or not, people do sometimes wind up not talking with parents, or vice versa.  It isn't a matter of hatefulness, but there are adequate reasons (I think) that I have not spoken to my father in ... 35? years?  Some things are just about humans being humans.  Most of us are pretty good, pretty much of the time.  But some aren't.  Life goes better if you don't spend much time with the ones who aren't.