I found a blog yesterday called FtMtF, and it got me thinking. One way I've come up with to explain my identity is that I sometimes feel like a woman trapped in a man's body trapped in a woman's body. And it's true, to an extent. I'm okay with being perceived as female and operating in society as a female, but I want to be more male-bodied. I want to approach androgyny from the other side of the spectrum; I'd love to be male-assigned transitioning to a more feminine presentation.

So am I FtMtF? I'm not really asking for an answer; I know no one can answer that for me. But as much as it seems to click (not completely, but significantly), it makes me a little sad. I've long thought that I didn't have a gender, that the concept of gender was foreign to me. And it is. I still don't know what traits of mine are masculine or feminine, I'm artsy and science-y and I don't know where that falls.

The reason it makes me sad is that it seems awfully... binary. And I'm very strongly non-binary. Or at least I want to be. But this isn't necessarily all about internal identity; it's largely about how I want my body to be configured. Am I genderless stuck in a body that's overly-gendered? Maybe. Am I really a woman under all this? I hope not.

I don't know where I'm going with this. I don't know what kind of answers I want. Just wanted to muse a little, I guess, and get this off my chest.

So...I'm really glad that I found someone else that feels kinda like this.  I've often joked, since I'm a kinda soft butch dyke, that I'm a man trapped in a woman's body trapped in a man's body.  But part of the revelation that I've had in transitioning is that, while, yeah, I do want to be female-bodied (or female-sexed), I also want to be able to straddle the line between presentations and genders.  In short, I want to be a female expressing the transmasculine sides of myself.

I know where my sex needs to be, but increasingly, I'm baffled by my constantly changing perception of where my gender is and where it's going.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm bigender, or agender, or a drag king, or whether I'm just reeeally gay.  It has forced me to consider whether I'm non-binary.  My mind's inched closer to "yes" in the past couple of weeks: it's not for nothing that I'm identifying here as genderqueer, for the moment.  We'll see where that takes me.

I would rather say that you are rather a FTA; Female to Androgyne. FTMTF, is a Female to Male that have de-transitioned to being female again, so I do not think it seems fully correct to apply that term in your case.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 14, 2011, 01:35:15 PM
I would rather say that you are rather a FTA; Female to Androgyne. FTMTF, is a Female to Male that have de-transitioned to being female again, so I do not think it seems fully correct to apply that term in your case.

The funny/unique thing/problem with labels is that it's not really within the bounds of another person to say "this is your label" or "this label is used for this category of people".  Identity is a really personal thing, so while there are descriptors that are generally true, that doesn't mean that people will self-identify with a label that is generally used to describe them by society (like, I dunno, "man" for a person with a 46,XY karyotype, testes, and a penis).

Either way, I don't want to put words in Julian's mouth, but I think Julian (they? she? he? ze? I don't know your preferred gender pronouns so I'm just going to provide a bunch) identifies as agender, which ain't the same as androgyne.

I can see what bishounen is saying and that might (maybe) be the technical def of FtMtF from the medical/physical point of view but when we are trying to describe how we FEEL well its not so cut and dried.
I think what could happen is as you take each step ie top surgery you and your body can re-calculate. Right now everything might feel wrong or confusing or off but with one change who knows how things will click or settle.

Espo that's kinda how I've started to address my transition from the get go. With the full understand that at some point, I may stop what I"m doing, maybe even turn around and go the other way. That with a forever moving target...it's hard to *stay* in the zone you're looking for.

I started with T and I'm still on it...doing well. However I've added back in some E. Odd...right? Well I apply a very very small dose to my bits once a week (since...my bits really are meant to be E fueled...so it's only fair to give it that, in order to keep it working properly. Or so I find) and then I apply a very small amount to my face. So it's not systemic E...but I'm finding my balance in these things.

We often joke that I'm an MtF in a woman's body. Not far off the mark...I suspect.

If I felt like the MTF community represented me at all I might find it quite insulting that one can identify as an MTF while not identifying as a female. MTF means female identity. If you are born a woman and identify as an MTF, that is supposed to mean that you are and identify as a cis woman.

I think all this androgyny/genderqueerness/whatever that is for some bizarre reason trying to pass itself off as transsexualism serves to make a real joke of genuine trans issues. Why can't you just call it androgyny/genderqueerness/whatever and be happy with that?

MTF is not a gender, it's a disfigurement.

I suppose, technically. But in the forest we use whatever label or descriptive at hand because all this androgyny/genderqueerness/whatever stuff is pretty hard and near impossible to describe clinically. The forest is a safe haven for people to express and share how they feel and in order to do that somewhat effectively we allow and even encourage ALL ownership of labels or identities to be left at the door.

pretty - I can see why you feel that way, but I can assure you that many of us in the unicorn forest experience great levels of dysphoria related to our bodies as well. Julian stated too that they feel the description is rather binary, and that they are opposed to it; it's just the closest way to explain how Julian is feeling right now.

Sure, but why does it have to be done in a way that patronizes someone else's problems?

In the first place, if you want to be more male-bodied, that doesn't make you MTF-identified. MTFs want to be female-bodied. That's a cosmetic choice. You could just say "I'm female and my style is masculine," it doesn't even need any "transness".

What do you do with the MtF who wants to keep their penis  ?   Exception to every rule right?

Some of them exist, but it is assumed that an MtF wants to be a woman physically.

I just don't understand why it needs to be called "FtMtF" when you could describe it without differentiating MtFs from Fs or even bringing MtFs into the picture, which is rude to MtFs and it's not even accurate.

But I'm trans. How is my trans identity making a mockery of trans issues? I am a person who identifies with a gender other than the one into which they were born, therefore I am transgendered. I also happen to not be binary-identified. These are not mutually exclusive.

And my style isn't masculine.

A person can have a female identity without wanting a female body. Surely you can agree those are two different things. There are non-op, no-hormones MtFs in the world who are happy in their male-assigned bodies. It's not that much of a stretch for there to be someone who identifies and wants to transition to that sort of identity.

I'm actually pretty offended. I'm not trying to patronize anyone's problems by posting here. I'm trying to use language to describe my feelings about my body and identity. Please don't tell me how I'm "supposed" to do that.

Binary's are soooooo ... idk... binary. Sheesh

Pretty,
Why get your knickers in a knot over words others use to describe themselves?

I am married to an androgyn and I can assure you that it is a type of trans.

So they have dysphoria in diferant measure and style than we do. This does not invalidate the androgyn/genderqueer experiance in any way.

Language is limited and if these people need to take some words and change them around to bring greater understanding then so be it.
You certainly do not have dominion over any word or group of words, nor do you have the right to come here into the unicorn forest and start choping trees down.
This is androgyn territory and us MTF should tread lightly here.

Quote from: cynthialee on December 18, 2011, 01:44:32 PM
Pretty,
Why get your knickers in a knot over words others use to describe themselves?

I am married to an androgyn and I can assure you that it is a type of trans.

So they have dysphoria in diferant measure and style than we do. This does not invalidate the androgyn/genderqueer experiance in any way.

Language is limited and if these people need to take some words and change them around to bring greater understanding then so be it.
You certainly do not have dominion over any word or group of words, nor do you have the right to come here into the unicorn forest and start choping trees down.
This is androgyn territory and us MTF should tread lightly here.

UNICORNS! That's lovely. Why don't I shave my head and say I identify as a cancer patient. I'll be a phoenix, okay? It's not rude because I'm a phoenix.

If you disagree with the concept and purpose of these subforums, bugger off - simple.

Quote from: Pica Pica on December 18, 2011, 04:48:48 PM
If you disagree with the concept and purpose of these subforums, bugger off - simple.

No problem with androgyny nor did I claim to have one, I'm just commenting on the rude way MtF identity is being trivialized here, as if MtFs aren't really female-identified and it's just some kind of running joke. And I initially thought this in reaction to the blog itself, it's not really specific to this subforum.

Quote from: pretty on December 16, 2011, 03:22:20 AM
I think all this androgyny/genderqueerness/whatever that is for some bizarre reason trying to pass itself off as transsexualism serves to make a real joke of genuine trans issues. Why can't you just call it androgyny/genderqueerness/whatever and be happy with that?

I see that now, apologies.

Some people have of course gone back and forth, or feel themselves shuttling back and forth though - and I suppose that is the mode and sensation that is trying to be evoked by FtMtF. I personally find it near impossible to think clearly in acronyms anyway, to get either enlightenment or offence from the phrase.

I don't think it is patronising to MtF's or FtM's for that matter as the phrase seems to be borrowing that language just to explore the contradictions in that person, rather than in having actual engagement with the transsexual side of things.

Quote from: Sevan on December 15, 2011, 09:03:04 PM
With the full understand that at some point, I may stop what I"m doing, maybe even turn around and go the other way. That with a forever moving target...it's hard to *stay* in the zone you're looking for.

I suppose that the phrase is trying to describe this kind of thing. I personally find it to be like using the tools of the binary to reach non-binary, seems a clumsy/inexact business and so some back and forth (or constant back and forth). I feel more that it's a 'grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change' kind of thing, but that's a whole different subject.