Quote from: Zaria on December 05, 2011, 11:26:11 AM
>> Right people, almost everywhere in the world, don't support equal rights for us, are against social equity measures, defend rich people from a more right taxation, are against foreign people integration into society. <<

Thats because you make the same mistake that most people do.  You don't separate social right/left and economic right/left.   I know many people who are very much economic 'right' who support equal rights for all and are supportive of immigration.  I am one of them. 
Capitalism may not be perfect, but it is more 'fair' than any other system out there. 

Hugs
Zaria

I am talking about political parties! People behave differently from their parties I knew this

Well by most people I would be classified as right wing.

But economically I am leaning towards socialism, however real socialism and not the liberal junk that the left is standing for nowadays.

i agree with that so much. I'm kind of a natural born socialist but the nonsense that socialism is today is not socialism

I'm interested in your idea of working socialistic society
Can you please tell me about it

Who me?

all 
no offence

I will try to do my best to write it down in a condensed version but it is so much that need to be adressed if you want to make socialism to work in its true meaning that I find it hard to fit it in a few lines.

Right now I am out of time but will give it a try when I get home again.

We re in 2011, almost 12, real socialism should be abandoned for age! Anyway socialistic parties in europe have a democratic nature and just press toward a more equal society, sometimes too much weak aybe!

Ok sorry but the time is just not on my side right now .

Anyway. Socialism must come from within the people, otherwise it is doomed to go bad from the start.

Todays socialists dont know what the hell they are talking about. I mean socialism without nationalism? that is impossible. It is sad to see that they dont realize that. They are today promoting multiculturalism which only leads to anarchy and eventually a bloodbath. Why? because it shatters the societies.

We humans just are that way, we split into groups and fight with our own groups best interests in mind because its so deeply programmed into our brain. It is all about survival! it doesnt matter if you like it or not because the fact still remains. We are made to work that way and there is nothing we can do about it, but accept it and respect each other.


The reason why europe is going down the drain right now is that nationalism is considered bad, and global uniformity is considered good. Nationalism brings a sense of belonging in the society and that is a good thing! When people feel like they are one with the society and when everybody knows that they are working for the nations and peoples best interests then then you also start to care for others within the group.

But today we want to blend all of the worlds people faster than we can say "multiculti" and what we do is actually to break down the countries and societies from within!


The socialists today are actually helping capitalists and banks to gain more and more influence over the world! But they are to blind to see that.


It can be seen here in Sweden like in many other coutries. But I can from my own experience actually tell a very big difference from lets say the 90s and now.. Then we could leave our cars and houses open without being afraid that someone should steal all the valuables inside! You could walk in the night without being raped, murdered or robbed. We had good healthcare, one of the best actually.

Today? well you cant be safe even if you lock the house or car, you cant go out in the night without being afraid.. We are on the top regarding rapes per capita, we can read about murders almost everyday (something that was very seldom in the 90s) and the healthcare? well our elders are starving and the care is really bad in general.

It is sad actually.



Sorry about spelling and all the other faults made.. I wrote this in a hurry!

^I agree. Real socialism works. The problem is, anytime it's ever been tried, America bombs it into oblivion or sets up a trade embargo against the country.

Examples

Nazi Germany(national socialism)

Cuba

Lybia

(China isn't socialist, it's non-democratic capitalism)

Quote from: Carolina1983 on December 21, 2011, 02:26:11 PM
The socialists today are actually helping capitalists and banks to gain more and more influence over the world! But they are to blind to see that.

this is it. Marx would be appalled.

Quote from: fionabell on December 21, 2011, 02:46:36 PM
^I agree. Real socialism works. The problem is, anytime it's ever been tried, America bombs it into oblivion or sets up a trade embargo against the country.

Examples

Nazi Germany(national socialism)

Cuba

Lybia

(China isn't socialist, it's non-democratic capitalism)

Nazi Germany as an example of good society?    Just that small detail with killing millions of our people and begin WW

Cuba ? It is just a museum of Soviet politics.

Is killing and imprisoning peoples with different thinking part of Real socialism? Or is it just a fault of government each of this paradises?

Quote from: Medusa on December 22, 2011, 01:55:38 AM
Nazi Germany as an example of good society?    Just that small detail with killing millions of our people and begin WW

Cuba ? It is just a museum of Soviet politics.

Is killing and imprisoning peoples with different thinking part of Real socialism? Or is it just a fault of government each of this paradises?

Well everything can be made to look evil in propaganda! My relatives lived in Germany and they told me that it was actually a very good society to live in. The people where all seen as equally important regardless of your status! And they also made vacation obligatory, and animal rights etc. It was a society well ahead of their time! But nobody did ever talk about it loud after the war because then you would be seen as a hater and got the label "nazi" put on you which meant no job and no money.

They did not recognize the Germany that is portrayed in so called documentaries etc. And yes there was a conflict between jews and the Germans because the jews did work for their groups own interests and not the Germans. You can even see that the jews declared war on Germany 1933 which did not help the situation.

After WW1 Germany was supressed and made to pay huge ammounts of money for a war they did not even start, and there was land stolen by Poland and others in which later germans was harassed (the reason why Hitler invaded poland).

Which are your people? Germany did not start WW2 but Poland and England did. And besides, who firebombed cities where only children and women resided in? oh yes the good allies did! Who used torture to make the germans confess things they never did? yes the allied forces did. Who raped and plundered millions after the war? yes the allied forces did. Not everything in this world is black and white and that is also the case of WW2. Something that people actually are starting to understand here in europe nowadays.

Germany opposed the bankers will and that resulted in war and destruction.

Never underestimate the power of propaganda! The US and their allies are very good at it.

And why then Germany attack other countries?
Why they want Sudets it newer was their land. Truth is that German occupants at Czechoslovakia was better and more polite than Red Army after them which was just a group of barbarians.
And concentration camps was just propaganda ?

Sorry Carolina but I was born in the immediate post-war period, and we were aware that  the Third Reich was far more evil than people today can possibly imagine. We grew up with people who had suffered directly.

Being Jewish meant having an ancestor as far back as it was possible to verify such. That meant you were a form of human virus to be wiped off the face of the earth, along with anyone else who didn't fit into their mad scramble around whoever was the current local Alpha-Male.
Economically it was laissez-faire capitalism taken to the extreme, coupled with monopoly or duopoly manadated by government.

Sorry for the rant, but that sort of apologetics for a retreat to a pre-Christian Dark Ages needs to be exposed for what it is.

As for myself I am an amalgam of Conservative, Anarcho-libertarian, Monarchist,very moderate Green.

Quote from: justmeinoz on December 22, 2011, 06:05:21 AM
Sorry Carolina but I was born in the immediate post-war period, and we were aware that  the Third Reich was far more evil than people today can possibly imagine. We grew up with people who had suffered directly.

Being Jewish meant having an ancestor as far back as it was possible to verify such. That meant you were a form of human virus to be wiped off the face of the earth, along with anyone else who didn't fit into their mad scramble around whoever was the current local Alpha-Male.
Economically it was laissez-faire capitalism taken to the extreme, coupled with monopoly or duopoly manadated by government.

Sorry for the rant, but that sort of apologetics for a retreat to a pre-Christian Dark Ages needs to be exposed for what it is.

As for myself I am an amalgam of Conservative, Anarcho-libertarian, Monarchist,very moderate Green.

Well I must say that I disagree. The victors write history! If the Axis won I bet that everybody would condemn the allied forces because they where the ultimate evil. There is always two sides of the coin. The Nüremberg trial for example was full of fake evidence and also forced confessions obtained from torture. And confessions obtained under torture can never be used as evidence for anything.

Pure good and evil only exists in fairytales.


I am not ignorant belive me, I have spent years and years of researching this because of my relatives and because it is a part of my history too. I still get the Nazi stamp on me because one of my relatives fought in the SS! I am so sick of it.

And if we are going to talk about concentration camps, yes they existed and many countries used them then and do even to this day.. Even the US! They are used to concentrate a potential threat and keep it away from the society, when there is war you dont want anyone to break the country apart from the inside. But I am not saying that I like the idea because of that. Many innocent has to suffer and that is not acceptable!


Before anyone calls me a hater I need to say that I do not hate anyone or like violence, both sides did horrible things during the war and that is not something that we ever should forget.. Ever! War is hell and I hope that we will not have to experience those horrible things that people had to go through at that time.

And I also grew up with people that had endured the hell of war. But from the other side of the conflict, I do not say that those people you know did not suffer. I am just saying that there was also another side.

One of them survived intense bombings in a city where there was only civilians, the Americans bombed the city to ashes and she was one of the few that survived. Just to be raped and severely beaten up by the russians later, her friend was dragged in the hair behind a tank naked, they drove and laughed until she was only a rag of blood and flesh. Many others got the same or worse treatment. 

And regarding the German armys decision to engage other countries. It is all about military tactics!

This thread has derailed. And I think that I may be the cause =/, so I am sorry about this and hereby I leave this discussion.

Quote from: justmeinoz on December 22, 2011, 06:05:21 AM
Sorry Carolina but I was born in the immediate post-war period, and we were aware that  the Third Reich was far more evil than people today can possibly imagine. We grew up with people who had suffered directly.

which means that you were affected more by war propaganda than her.

Quote
Being Jewish meant having an ancestor as far back as it was possible to verify such. That meant you were a form of human virus to be wiped off the face of the earth, along with anyone else who didn't fit into their mad scramble

There were many Jewish officers in the nazi army. If you were quarter Jewish that was considered ok.

However, the Nazis did not want the Jews wiped from the earth. Hitler  supported the state of Israel and merely wanted them deported form Gemany.

Quote from: Medusa on December 22, 2011, 05:43:55 AM
And why then Germany attack other countries?
Why they want Sudets it newer was their land. Truth is that German occupants at Czechoslovakia was better and more polite than Red Army after them which was just a group of barbarians.
And concentration camps was just propaganda ?

They were reclaiming land which was lost to them in ww1. Poland was terrible to the German part of Poland, known as the polish corridor. 

The nazis knew that war would inevitably come to them. They'd chosen to cast off the shackles of international finance. They knew the capitalist west would come for them.

Concentration camps were invented by the British in the Boer war. The Americans put the American Japanese in concentration camps too.

Quote from: Medusa on December 22, 2011, 01:55:38 AM
Nazi Germany as an example of good society?    Just that small detail with killing millions of our people and begin WW

England declared war on Germany. Yes it was a great society. The workers were getting great pay and affordable housing. They invented the personal car too, and the motorway. Killing millions of people, last time I checked it was Winston Churchill and Stalin and Roosevelt who have the higher death tolls than the Nazis.

Quote
Cuba ? It is just a museum of Soviet politics.

Is killing and imprisoning peoples with different thinking part of Real socialism? Or is it just a fault of government each of this paradises?

America kills and imprisons a far higher percentage of people than cuba does. And who knows what it is, because with the trade embargo that America has on it how can it possibly be what the Cubans want it to be?