My questions are:

1. How long did it take you (or anyone you know, or have read about) to notice that your breasts are growing? Do you know anyone who didn't/couldn't grow breasts even after a year or more of HRT?

2. What effects did estrogen have on your hair? Any regrowth? Did you stop losing hair during HRT?


A little science on estrogen and telomerase activity, just so you know how (little) I understand this:

Chromosomes are protected by telomeres--the loss of which marks cell death--and the enzyme telomerase, which replenishes telomeres. This 1978 discovery won the 2009 Nobel Prize in Medicine. A 2010 study by Harvard professor Ronald DePinho demonstrated age reversal by activating telomerase; this was done by "knocking out" the gene that makes telomerase, causing symptoms of premature aging such as gray hair, brain shrinkage, and atrophy of the testes, and upon reactivation of telomerase production there was restoration of affected organs.

The telomerase activating mechanism of estrogen has long been documented, and estrogen deficiency has long been observed to inhibit telomerase.

Estrogen however, by the same process, is also responsible for making cancer cells virtually immortal, thus the use of anti-estrogens such as Tamoxifen to treat breast cancer. Commenting on the double-edged sword property of telomerase activation, DePinho advices that "the risk can be minimized by switching on telomerase only for a matter of days or weeks — which may be brief enough to avoid fueling hidden cancers or cause new ones to develop."

This may explain the empirical results of sexually active women (on the pills) well in their 40s who still look half their age, and why they are the most susceptible to breast cancer later in life.


I'm in my early 20s, and although I still have a full head of hair my hairline is starting to recede.

I've been taking finasteride intermittently for 3 years with questionable results. (I stop after I notice that my hair loss has subsided, and resume when my hair starts falling again.)

The effects of "conditional telomerase induction" on the "proliferation of hair follicle stem cells" was studied in 2005 by Stanford cancer biologist Steven Artandi, and you can see a picture comparing a mouse with its TERT gene turned on with two control mice. But Artandi concludes thus: "baldness dramatically alters hair follicles and makes it unlikely they would respond to the protein."

I'm about to begin my ultra-low dosage HRT with oestrogel  and estradiol valerate tablets, taking them once a week for a month and skipping for a month.  I wish to reap the benefits of estrogen without the development of breasts, specifically I hope to maintain what healthy follicles I have unravaged by DHT (as Artandi thinks regrowth is unlikely). I already have feminine features, but I definitely desire for my face to look convincingly female enough that strangers wouldn't have to apologize for calling me "Ma'am". I'm just not a fan of breasts, and I wish to remain flat-chested.

You might be wondering why I chose to discuss hair loss in the MTF community instead of a specialized forum...

I haven't found studies between estrogen and hair loss, and most people in hair loss forums have never and will never touch estrogen. My google searches only show digressing posts in HRT MTF forums, and I wish to compile personal-anecdotal-empirical evidence to better inform my decisions and the rest of the hair loss community as well.

Thank you.

I didn't actually know I had any hair loss until I started HRT because my forehead was pretty small, but after starting HRT of estradiol, spironolactone and finasteride I have some hairs growing just under my hair line. Lucky me, my small forehead gets smaller.

Though because I started them all at the same time it's hard to say which caused the regrowth, I imagine all three together maximized the effects, but I also got breast growth after like 3 weeks (though it's been pretty slow now almost 3 months later, still not even a full cup size ;_;) on it which you don't want.

Thank you so much NurseWithWound! Your name... I like it. Nursing a wound with another wound, so much poetic potential there. Anyway... three weeks. Let's say you were taking HRT regularly, then that's 21 days straight, and I'm only planning on taking once a week... with a month break. So in a year I'll get 24 days worth of what you had.

And... thanks to Sarah Louise for correcting my post! 

I started the estradiol six months before getting on spironolactone. I had alot of hair come in on my head. my receding hair has come about 8Th of inch back. after I started spironolactone more hair has come in. I hope even more come in because I have high for head that drives me crazy.

Quote from: jainie marlena on December 22, 2011, 12:35:03 PM
I started the estradiol six months before getting on spironolactone. I had alot of hair come in on my head. my receding hair has come about 8Th of inch back. after I started spironolactone more hair has come in. I hope even more come in because I have high for head that drives me crazy.

Thanks Jainie! A high forehead should make you more attractive.

Quote from: Beverley on December 22, 2011, 02:24:28 PM
Try rubbing Minoxidil on your hairline. It takes about 4 months to work but it is a LOT cheaper than Rogaine (Regaine??). Minoxidil is the active ingredient in Rogaine. It takes about a full year to get really obvious results.

Beverley

I tried Minoxidil, was faithful to it for a couple of months at a time but skipped out of sheer lack of discipline. I've used it intermittently for less than 2 years I think. Thanks Beverley.

I don't think you will really get your empirical data here as nearly all of us take estrogen with antiandrogens, so you probably want to try the andro forum as I notice some of them prefer to be on low dosages of hormones "just enough" to achieve an andro look.

Quote from: MsDazzler on December 23, 2011, 02:44:56 PM
I don't think you will really get your empirical data here as nearly all of us take estrogen with antiandrogens, so you probably want to try the andro forum as I notice some of them prefer to be on low dosages of hormones "just enough" to achieve an andro look.

Thank you very much MsDazzler! It seems that my situation better "fits" in with andro... By the way, this is my first time "coming out" on the Internet to seek support on feminization. I didn't know that "andro" was just as valid a group as MTF, but I honestly feel at home in MTF forums so far.

The original plan was to post this on various forums, and share in each forum anecdotes I've collected everywhere.

My understanding is that testosterone converts to dihydrotestosterone (DHT.) It is DHT which does damage to hair follicles causing pattern baldness in males.  It is not clear that adding estrogen adds any extra value to preserve hair.  In fact many women lose hair as they age because all women have some testosterone and some of it converts to DHT.

Quote from: Vanora on December 23, 2011, 03:13:36 PM
My understanding is that testosterone converts to dihydrotestosterone (DHT.) It is DHT which does damage to hair follicles causing pattern baldness in males.  It is not clear that adding estrogen adds any extra value to preserve hair.  In fact many women lose hair as they age because all women have some testosterone and some of it converts to DHT.

Though there still remains much to understand about DHT's role in male pattern baldness, I'm betting on what I do know: that hair follicles, like any other cell, undergo cell division, and cell division requires telomeres, and telomeres are replenished by the enzyme telomerase, and telomerase production is activated by estrogen. Even if DHT "does not bind nor inhibit the synthesis of estrogen receptor," it "decreases estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding," and this may include estrogen-induced transcriptional up-regulation of telomerase, which effects premature aging of hair follicles due to lack of telomeres.

It may sound simple, but the discovery of the role of telomeres has indeed simplified the understanding of most cellular processes.

 To your questions...

1. Breast growth: I noticed it within two months. However, the growth never got to be significant, much to my dismay - that is, not even close to justifying a bra. It has since been a year and two weeks, and the growth has remained the same, at a point where, while breasts appear to exist, it doesn't look out of the ordinary for a male. It's possible that this is just because I'm underweight, but when I take my family's genes to heart, I can't help but feel a little entitled, as my sister wears a 26DD, and my mom is a bit bigger than that.

2. Hair loss stopped; however, at seventeen, there wasn't all that much, and whatever was lost regrew due to HRT.

Probably not the most helpful, but there is certainly the possibility of being flat-chested or having very little growth on HRT. Having no growth is probably extremely rare. Hair loss appears to halt and is reversed, but the reversal is usually very limited.

Quote from: newkama_sanji on December 23, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
Though there still remains much to understand about DHT's role in male pattern baldness, I'm betting on what I do know: that hair follicles, like any other cell, undergo cell division, and cell division requires telomeres, and telomeres are replenished by the enzyme telomerase, and telomerase production is activated by estrogen. Even if DHT "does not bind nor inhibit the synthesis of estrogen receptor," it "decreases estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding," and this may include estrogen-induced transcriptional up-regulation of telomerase, which effects premature aging of hair follicles due to lack of telomeres.

It may sound simple, but the discovery of the role of telomeres has indeed simplified the understanding of most cellular processes.

It seems like drugs that inhibit DHT help pattern baldness whether or not significant quantities of estrogen are present.  It seems that estrogen is a significant enough hormone that it shouldn't be considered treatment for baldness.  Whether or not it helps, it is probably secondary to most patients compared to all the other good and bad effects of estrogen.  That being said, I don't object to someone trying it.  I just don't think there is much established direct established proof on estrogen's role in hair loss.  I wouldn't discount that it might help based on what you are saying.

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on December 23, 2011, 04:58:47 PM
To your questions...

1. Breast growth: I noticed it within two months. However, the growth never got to be significant, much to my dismay - that is, not even close to justifying a bra. It has since been a year and two weeks, and the growth has remained the same, at a point where, while breasts appear to exist, it doesn't look out of the ordinary for a male. It's possible that this is just because I'm underweight, but when I take my family's genes to heart, I can't help but feel a little entitled, as my sister wears a 26DD, and my mom is a bit bigger than that.

2. Hair loss stopped; however, at seventeen, there wasn't all that much, and whatever was lost regrew due to HRT.

Probably not the most helpful, but there is certainly the possibility of being flat-chested or having very little growth on HRT. Having no growth is probably extremely rare. Hair loss appears to halt and is reversed, but the reversal is usually very limited.

Thank you so much Kelly! I figured that weight is a factor, and as I'm underweight as well your experience is very important to me.

Quote from: Vanora on December 23, 2011, 05:32:20 PM
It seems like drugs that inhibit DHT help pattern baldness whether or not significant quantities of estrogen are present.  It seems that estrogen is a significant enough hormone that it shouldn't be considered treatment for baldness.  Whether or not it helps, it is probably secondary to most patients compared to all the other good and bad effects of estrogen.  That being said, I don't object to someone trying it.  I just don't think there is much established direct established proof on estrogen's role in hair loss.  I wouldn't discount that it might help based on what you are saying.

I think it's not the amount but the balance of both DHT and estrogen: when an anti-androgen inhibits DHT, the balance tips regardless of the amount of estrogen; likewise, more estrogen might offset the estrogen-antagonist effects of DHT. I share your skepticism Vanora, but this is why forums are great for asking real people about real experiences  And I've been hearing success stories so far!

It would be helpful to hear about someone who started getting MPB during low to moderate HRT.

BREASTS: After 1 year on spiro and finastetide my nipple were puffy and the doctor detected glandular growth the size of a large bean. Then 1 month after starting estro they were the size of a golf ball, during the last two months (3 month in estro) the aerola is about 2 inches in diameter and the breasts look like little cones. I have been told by relatives and friends that I should start wearing a bra, i bought a few, tried, but ..

HAIR: After a few months in spiro and finasteride I notice some thickening. Then after estrogen I see regrow everywhere. 

Jen61

Quote from: Jen61 on December 23, 2011, 07:23:30 PM
BREASTS: After 1 year on spiro and finastetide my nipple were puffy and the doctor detected glandular growth the size of a large bean. Then 1 month after starting estro they were the size of a golf ball, during the last two months (3 month in estro) the aerola is about 2 inches in diameter and the breasts look like little cones. I have been told by relatives and friends that I should start wearing a bra, i bought a few, tried, but ..

HAIR: After a few months in spiro and finasteride I notice some thickening. Then after estrogen I see regrow everywhere. 

Jen61

Amazing, Jen!

Really, I couldn't even find anything remotely as helpful in science journals!

It is a synergistic effect, really - finasteride blocks most of the testosterone converting to DHT, and whatever DHT remains, Spiro blocks it from ever binding with the androgen receptors in the hair follicle, and finally, estrogen helps protect and nuture the hair follicle.

Those trio combo cannot be beaten.

Like Annah said in another thread about hair loss, there is also the option of dutasteride which is a lot more potent than finasteride, but its long-term effects are unknown because it blocks both Type I and Type II enzymes (finasteride only blocks Type II) and Type I is present in brain tissue.

Do what you will do.

Quote from: MsDazzler on December 23, 2011, 08:33:39 PM
It is a synergistic effect, really - finasteride blocks most of the testosterone converting to DHT, and whatever DHT remains, Spiro blocks it from ever binding with the androgen receptors in the hair follicle, and finally, estrogen helps protect and nuture the hair follicle.

Those trio combo cannot be beaten.

Like Annah said in another thread about hair loss, there is also the option of dutasteride which is a lot more potent than finasteride, but its long-term effects are unknown because it blocks both Type I and Type II enzymes (finasteride only blocks Type II) and Type I is present in brain tissue.

Do what you will do.

Thank you Dazzle! Spiro is something I only knew recently from MTF forums, and while a couple of years ago I was nervous about taking finasteride, I'm more willing to take drastic measures now. I grew my hair long for the first time around that time, and somehow, because I never really had any self-esteem, the compliments I received from it made me treasure my hair more than anything in my body.

Quote from: newkama_sanji on December 23, 2011, 08:28:03 PM
Amazing, Jen!

Really, I couldn't even find anything remotely as helpful in science journals!

If memory serves me well about 5% of mean treated with spiro for enlarged prostate do develop gynecomastia.

As far as estro and hair grow the literature is a bit confusing. This is what I have been able to distill: it seems that for both males and females a sudden rise of estro may result in losing some hair -do not panic- this is caused by estrogen induce hair follicles to enter a restin stage. Aftyer a few week a more abundant grow begins.

caveat is that all this individual specific response, several factors such as nutrition, stress, environmental pollution, liver and kidney health status, other medicines taken, etc, do modulate the estrogen effects on hair grow

My 2-cents

Jen61

This place is so awesome I mean I just had to say it!

My lazy desperate haste made me overlook the forum specifically for HRT posts, and just as I got there a PICTURE OF REGROWTH welcomed me.

Now I should be off to the andro forum where flat-chested inner lesbian me may find someone taking ultra-low dosages for years with no breast development.

its a individual thing hey i ain't lying like even on just testosterone blockers you can gain boobs i mean i started only a low low does of spiro when i started to transition and took just over a month for visible and quite easily noticeable breasts to form hey so i ain't no doctor but estrogen is a girls hormone and more than not promotes breast grow


Let me put it this way i had a 36AA chest at 1.5months where as some can get as little as my growth in 6 months to year to never its a different experience for everyone:)

Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on December 24, 2011, 04:21:36 AM
its a individual thing hey i ain't lying like even on just testosterone blockers you can gain boobs i mean i started only a low low does of spiro when i started to transition and took just over a month for visible and quite easily noticeable breasts to form hey so i ain't no doctor but estrogen is a girls hormone and more than not promotes breast grow


Let me put it this way i had a 36AA chest at 1.5months where as some can get as little as my growth in 6 months to year to never its a different experience for everyone:)

There are ultra low dosage regimens of estrogen therapy for menopausal women that specifically avoid or minimize growth of breast tissue, as cancer is fundamentally an error in tissue growth. As I mentioned above, DePinho advices to turn on telomerase activity (which estrogen does) for only a matter of days or weeks if you want the anti-aging effects of a telomerase activator with minimal to no risk of cancer.

Thank you for sharing PradaDemon! I know that individual regimens are not the same, but for those who are doing similar things, adjusting for body type and general health, the differences should not be that far between

Quote from: Beverley on December 24, 2011, 06:15:10 AM
You might also want to check on the aromatase reaction. If you have too much testosterone, the body converts it to oestrogen. Testosterone and oestrogen are very, very similar in structure.

If you block the transformation of testosterone to DHT and you have high T levels then the excess  T may well be converted to oestrogen.

Beverley.

Thanks Beve! I've read about aromatase and how adipose tissue around the waist also synthesize estrogen. Fortunately I have naturally low levels of testosterone relative to normal men (but still higher than normal women), unfortunately I have naturally vulnerable hair follicles. To rely on excess testosterone for estrogen is to suffer the ill effects of testosterone that would negate whatever benefits one'll get from estrogen, except breast development.