your argument is faulty as everyone has a heart but few are BGL

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 24, 2011, 02:15:40 PM
your argument is faulty as everyone has a heart but few are BGL

Everyone has a heart and a brain. (Relatively) few people are LGB or black. I think that corresponds more closely between the provided examples.

I think Lilacwoman is not feeling very well and needs a hug.. (((((Lilacwoman))))

May your days go better and may you be able to sleep at nights..

okay sorry but this gay and black things are ridiculous.
could we keep to the topic about TRANGENDERS being mental ill or not.

Quote from: Brendon on December 24, 2011, 01:56:04 PM
Oh god, I read this and laughed so hard. My first thought was, using the flawed logic 'LGB people have a higher rate of mental illness, therefore being LGB is a mental illness', we now have 'black people have a higher rate of heart disease, therefore being black is a heart disease'. Suddenly, this whole argument seems about 47 times more ridiculous, and now I'm not even worked up about it. haha

Which for some reason made me think of this:

Quote from: Natkat on December 24, 2011, 04:52:11 PM
okay sorry but this gay and black things are ridiculous.
could we keep to the topic about TRANGENDERS being mental ill or not.

Natkat you posted about mental illness and nationality. Gays and blacks are marginalized groups the same as transgender people, and their experiences are relevant to us.

Quote from: Felix on December 24, 2011, 05:00:00 PM
Natkat you posted about mental illness and nationality. Gays and blacks are marginalized groups the same as transgender people, and their experiences are relevant to us.

black people and gay people are not on a list of mentall illness, at least not wher im from.
transgender people is, but might go off that list, I want peoples opinion on that not about black and gay people.

My therapist, a well qualified psycho-therapist, has been very forthright in telling me all along that being transgender/transsexual is not a mental illness.. And in fact, he describes his job as being there for the 'other issues' in life.. Given that I don't really have any, that may explain why I only see him for a 30 minute catch up every couple of months..

My belief, based on the available data, is that being trans is a physiological issue - just a variation on an intersex condition. It's certainly not a mental illness.

As far as being gay or lesbian being a mental illness, umm,  And lilacwoman's use of stats also gave me a giggle.. I wonder if it's occurred to her that the reason G and L's suffer from mental illness is due to the stresses involved for some/many of them?

My psychiatrist doesn't consider it a mental illness either. It's difficult because you kind of have to talk about it like it is to be taken seriously by government, insurance companies, etc...how does one acknowledge that it is a legitimate condition that requires treatment (transition) without pathologizing it?

(Apparently my spell-check doesn't recognize "pathologizing" as a word but I'm sure that's how it's spelled  )

Quote from: Natkat on December 24, 2011, 06:14:51 PM
black people and gay people are not on a list of mentall illness, at least not wher im from.
transgender people is, but might go off that list, I want peoples opinion on that not about black and gay people.

I'm gay, and the circumstances that puts me in do overlap with those created by being transgender. I'll stop commenting if I can only say what you want to hear. It is your thread.

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.

facepalm

Quote from: Felix on December 24, 2011, 06:51:53 PM
I'm gay, and the circumstances that puts me in do overlap with those created by being transgender. I'll stop commenting if I can only say what you want to hear. It is your thread.

im gay as well,
but im not interesteed in having a discussion about that or being black.
I simple ask people to try stay in topic. this is not just you, I just say so in general when people starting getting offtopic with anything.
--
to make it all clear;
gay people or black people are not mental ill and not on the list.
at least not where im from.
black people have been unaccepted, but isnt anymore
and homosexualety have been a mentall illness,
but it got removed from the list years ago,
transexuals are about to get removed as well..
would you like that to happent or not?
------------

Sorry Natkat, but I just cannot let it pass when somone waves their hollier than thou-finger against people under the same roof as themselves only to try to look "better" and more "righteous".


So, let's investigate the claims of our dear lilacwoman, then, and go by her logic and see where that leads us.

She claims:

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses

Her defence for her standpoint is the following:

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.

42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)

Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)

According to her logic, then Transsexualism must then be a mental disorder aswell, as the rate of depression, the unemployment, the social phobias, etc, is extremely high in the T-group, and not any least, the suicide rate amongst transsexuals are 42%. That's right, 42%, even higher than the suicide rate amongst gay males, gay females and bisexuals.

So if going by lilacwomans famed logic, then transsexualism must be a mental disorder, too, given the extremey high rate of mental problems and illnesses the group contains.

However, here lilacwoman will now say: "NO! That is different! Transsexuals have these problems because of social misary and ignorance from the surrounding- Not because they are transsexuals!".
Ah, interesting claim. Could it perhaps be the same for homo and bisexuals, then?

Well, according to the following research, that is indeed the case:

QuoteMental Health HBTQ-people greater in Societies that are openminded:

Many studies show that gay teenagers with supportive families have better mental health and lower suicide rates. A study has also shown that gays who live in states with marriage bans have higher levels of depression than gays who don't. Another study shows that gays who are out(open about their sexuality) have better mental health than those who are not. There's a study that shows its a gay person's attitude towards their gayness that predicts their mental health with gays having a negative view of gayness having poorer mental health.
"The effects of social factors on the mental health status of homosexual men and women have been well documented in studies, which found a relationship between experiences of stigma, prejudice, and discrimination and mental health status.52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61 Furthermore, controlling for psychological predictors of present distress seems to eliminate differences in mental health status between heterosexual and homosexual adolescents.62 The mediating role of relationship status suggests that higher prevalence rates of some disorders in homosexual people compared with heterosexual people could also be caused by loneliness."
52 Brooks V. Minority Stress and Lesbian Women. Lexington, Mass: DC Heath; 1981
53 Meyer IF. Minority stress and mental health in gay men. J Health Soc Behav. 1995;36:38-56
54 Bradford J, Ryan C, Rothblum ED. National Lesbian Health Care Survey: implications for mental health care. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1994;62:228-242
55 Frable DE, Wortman C, Joseph J. Predicting self-esteem, well-being, and distress in a cohort of gay men: the importance of cultural stigma, personal visibility, community networks, and positive identity. J Pers. 1997;65:599-624
56 Herek GM, Gillis JR, Cogan JC. Psychological sequelae of hate-crime victimization among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1999;67:945-951
57 Meyer IH, Dean L. Internalized homophobia, intimacy, and sexual behavior among gay and bisexual men. In: Herek GM, ed. Stigma and Sexual Orientation: Understanding Prejudice Against Lesbians, Gay Men, and Bisexuals. Thousand Oaks, Calif: Sage Publications; 1998:160-186
58 Herek GM, Gillis JR, Cogan JC, Glunt EK. Hate crime victimization among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults. J Interpersonal Violence. 1997;12:195-215
59 Otis MD, Skinner WF. The prevalence of victimization and its effect on mental well-being among lesbian and gay people. J Homosex. 1996;30:93-121
60 Ross MW. The relationship between life events and mental health in homosexual men. J Clin Psychol. 1990;46:402-411
61 Rotheram-Borus MJ, Hunter J, Rosario M. Suicidal behavior and gay-related stress among gay and bisexual male adolescents. J Adolesc Res. 1994;9:498-508
62 Safen SA, Heimberg RG. Depression, hopelessness, suicidality, and related factors in sexual minority and heterosexual adolescents. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1999;67:859-866

Oops. Seems like it after all is not the homo or bisexual orientations itself that is the mental problem, but the social factors and the attitudes from the surroundings.

Lilacwoman should know better at her age, and not the least, in her situation.

Quotethis 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.

On the contrary, all the research done in this area not only proves that homo and bisexuality are not the cause for the mental problems at all, but the social factors the homo or bisexual individual moves in.
In the surroundings where the homo and bisexual person is accepted, the person do not experience this rate.


You know, just because you look down upon "different" people and groups as being "deviant groups", it does not make you any more- big quote- "normal" in any way in the view of the people that condemn those groups, if that is your secret goal and reason for your attitudes.
For, according to the Religious condemners, the anti gay activists and the homophobes/transphobes, you are just as "deviant" and "unwell" yourself, as these people do not view you as a woman but as a homosexual man, that, at best, "needs help", no matter how you view yourself.

You might just aswell realize, that- despite the differences between the groups- you are in the very same boat as the T-persons in all their versions, the Crossdressers, the Intersexuals, the Androgynes, the homosexuals, the bisexuals, the ->-bleeped-<-s, etc etc etc, whether you wants it to be that way or not, so you might just aswell start rowing.

Quotesorry about that.

You should be. Tsk tsk.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 26, 2011, 10:12:22 AM
Sorry Natkat, but I just cannot let it pass when somone waves their hollier than thou-finger against people under the same roof as themselves only to try to look "better" and more "righteous".

I dont blame you,
but I got the felling the person might be trolling,
and I dont wanna put energy on something whos already seam pretty clear.

I'm believe that she thought the stuff that she was saying was correct, and worried that someone looking at the sight would think that we had that sort of opinion on LGB people.  Whichever it was, I think we've come to the conclusion that no one is mentally ill due to who they identify as, or love, but because of the pressure in communities across the world to conform to a heteronormative, cisgendered idealistic lifestyle and the pain that can come from dysphoria etc, LGBTQ people have a higher rate of mental illnesses like depression because of their opression.

"Lilacwoman" has been stopped from posting anymore and has been thoroughly corrected.

Quote from: AdamMLP on December 26, 2011, 04:29:04 PM
I'm believe that she thought the stuff that she was saying was correct, and worried that someone looking at the sight would think that we had that sort of opinion on LGB people.  Whichever it was, I think we've come to the conclusion that no one is mentally ill due to who they identify as, or love, but because of the pressure in communities across the world to conform to a heteronormative, cisgendered idealistic lifestyle and the pain that can come from dysphoria etc, LGBTQ people have a higher rate of mental illnesses like depression because of their opression.

"Lilacwoman" has been stopped from posting anymore and has been thoroughly corrected.

opression is pretty much what I belive to be the case for when people are ill or not, in many situations.

I heard a funny story about autism people saying it where a mutation, which mean that in 1000 years (or something) from now on the non-autistic people would be in a lower number than autism people.
today its opposite which mean autism are seen as a disoder, people who think diffrently have diffrent thing there good and bad at than the rest of the people.
but if the number change then the normal people would be the one living in a sociaty who are built for something who dosent fit them, would that mean they would be the disordered ones with whatever it would be??
I wonder? (this sort of thinking remind me of the movie Shame no more)

Quote from: Natkat on December 26, 2011, 04:38:02 PM
opression is pretty much what I belive to be the case for when people are ill or not, in many situations.

I heard a funny story about autism people saying it where a mutation, which mean that in 1000 years (or something) from now on the non-autistic people would be in a lower number than autism people.
today its opposite which mean autism are seen as a disoder, people who think diffrently have diffrent thing there good and bad at than the rest of the people.
but if the number change then the normal people would be the one living in a sociaty who are built for something who dosent fit them, would that mean they would be the disordered ones with whatever it would be??
I wonder? (this sort of thinking remind me of the movie Shame no more)

Maybe, who knowns what people will be like in a few centuries?  An example in me and my family is that our smallest toe is very small.  In my case it doesn't actually touch the floor at all, and people who used to see my footprints after getting out of the swimming pool at school thought it was really weird because I only had four toes showing on the footprint.  So I was the strange out with freaky feet, but I heard in biology that humans are slowly evolving to have less toes as we need them less than our ancesteral apes did, so we're evolving to have less.  Which actually means that eventually there will be four toed humans, and those who still have five toes will be the strange ones!

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.

Are you sure? First, does L and G hate T that much? It seems if it's the case they could have dropped T from LGBT long ago. Second, does the L and G community have that much power over ICD and DSM?

We all know that sexual orientation and gender identity are separate things, but I don't think either community benefit from separatism, not to mention those who are both trans and gay.

Quoteblack people have been unaccepted, but isnt anymore

Have you ever been to Alabama or Georgia? I was taught never to speak to black people, that they're dirty and they steal, that they have no morals, etc. Then I lived in mostly black areas a lot where I was taught that white people are stupid and evil and weird. I still maintain that's completely relevant. We have the same bathroom issues, marriage issues, lots of stuff.

I've never until recently lived around other open trans people, but I've also never until recently been in the majority as a white person.

Quotetransexuals are about to get removed as well

I don't believe that will happen with the next edition, because not everybody on the decision committee is transfriendly. I do hope that it happens relatively soon, though.

Quote from: Felix on December 26, 2011, 06:47:29 PM
Have you ever been to Alabama or Georgia?

I've never until recently lived around other open trans people, but I've also never until recently been in the majority as a white person.
I don't believe that will happen with the next edition, because not everybody on the decision committee is transfriendly. I do hope that it happens relatively soon, though.

no I havent,
I been refering to my own country on those and the laws,
im sorry for my ignorance,
where I live black people and homosexuals arnt mentall ill, so thats why I dont understand it to be so.