why do people claim that it is harder to pass as an mtf or that ftm have it easy when it comes to transition or passing? i hear alot of that, and people say things like "puberty is worse for an mtf." i decided to make a compare and contrast list to prove that it's equal.

let me try to make a venn diagram type of comparison to show you how not true that is.

Male puberty: Growth Spurt, Increased penis and testicle size, Pubic hair, Axillary hair, Voice change, Increased facial and body hair, Ability to ejaculate sperm, Broader shoulders compared to hips.

Female puberty: Growth Spurt (regardless of female tendency to be shorter,) Breast Development, Pubic hair, Axillary hair, Voice change (regardless of female voice change being more subtle and gradual,) Menstrual cycle, Ability to become pregnant, thicker fat distribution in hips, buttocks thighs, breasts.

do you see how the number of changes are basically equal? just because one sex changes in one way or the other doesn't make it any less of a change. i'll also add, females can grow more facial/body hair as part of a change in puberty. it's variable on genetics. i'm sure i didn't list every single change, but those are the main ones. i've studied this so much, so i know that regardless of what sex you are, they both have just as many changes. if you are a transgender individual, going through the changes of that sex will be no picnic. also, take note. can an FTM do nearly as much surgically wise or can they do voice training before hrt? i don't think so. it gets pretty depressing when mtf are constantly testifying that we fall short when it comes to ftm. maybe people should try to think a little deeper?

   Yeah I think surgically FTM have more to do then a MTF but passing wise FTM have it easier as 90% can and will eventually pass after being on T for a period of time. They may end up looking like a teenage boy or young man but that's better then not passing if you ask me.


   There are advantages & disadvantages to both.

It's complicated. I think as an ftm I can pass more easily for the most part. Genitally, though, I'll always be wrong. There's not even a distant hope of being anatomically normal.

There are a lot of factors though. Testosterone wrecks the body of an mtf, but I got pregnant. I got pregnant twice, and I got raped in situations where I believe I would've been safe if I was perceived as male. I have permanently wide hips, and even if I were straight I might get treated like I'm gay (when I pass) because I look small and soft, and I don't always know how to act properly socially male.

And...and there are lots of issues an mtf faces that I just shouldn't start listing. That's not really my place, and it's not necessary.

I agree it's a pretty mixed set of situations, comparable in some aspects but apples and oranges on the whole.

It seems as if passing for FTMs is much much easier since the hormones seem to really work wonders most of the time.  Very few that I've seen (on youtube mostly) DON'T pass after several months and the natural voice change is amazing, whereas in MTF, this is not the case. It seems that the MTFs who start really young have maybe a similar success rate.  I've actually never heard that puberty is easier for FTMs before and agree with you that it probably is just about equally hard for both.  I mean growing breasts, hips, and getting periods must be pure agony.  I'm not sure where you've heard this, because I never have.

For me, I think it is because it is socially and culturally more acceptable for women to wear men's clothing, to be tomboys (like sports, hunting, etc), than it is for men to wear feminine clothing, jewelry, makeup, get their nails done, etc.

So early-transition trans men are just strong, solid women (in the eyes of society) and likely unnoticed, whereas early-transition trans women might be ridiculed or worse for expressing their femininity.

Society and their reactions, even to boys who are not trans or gay liking traditionally women's things/activities even as benign as cooking, are more negative than they are for girls who enjoy traditionally men's activities.


Jay

Quote from: sonopoly on December 25, 2011, 07:28:45 AM
It seems as if passing for FTMs is much much easier since the hormones seem to really work wonders most of the time.  Very few that I've seen (on youtube mostly) DON'T pass after several months and the natural voice change is amazing, whereas in MTF, this is not the case. It seems that the MTFs who start really young have maybe a similar success rate.  I've actually never heard that puberty is easier for FTMs before and agree with you that it probably is just about equally hard for both.  I mean growing breasts, hips, and getting periods must be pure agony.  I'm not sure where you've heard this, because I never have.

I wonder if whoever said puberty was worse for mtf meant that its effects are harder to remove. Because I can't see why else someone would think that.

I totally agree, FA (didn't you used to be Nero?).  I'm really not sure where the OP is coming from here, though maybe your thought that mtf effects are more difficult to remove, which further supports the idea that it's harder to be an MTF, which doesn't support the OP's thoughts. I wish the OP would elaborate and respond, because I'm confused and want to hear her thoughts.

That, and if there is a 'default' gender it tend to male, and not female.

Quote from: sonopoly on December 25, 2011, 08:01:56 AM
I totally agree, FA (didn't you used to be Nero?).  I'm really not sure where the OP is coming from here, though maybe your thought that mtf effects are more difficult to remove, which further supports the idea that it's harder to be an MTF, which doesn't support the OP's thoughts. I wish the OP would elaborate and respond, because I'm confused and want to hear her thoughts.

ok, so i'm back. anyway, i saw a thread here maybe over a year ago where someone said that they think puberty is harder for mtf, they were ftm btw. i've also heard on and off many times that someone who is mtf just can't transition as well as someone ftm. i think it's not only unfair to ftm, but it's also unfair to mtf when people say things like that and how mtf is a pity case and all that jazz. i don't believe it's harder or easier for one sex or the other. even at that, we're all different so it's going to be different sets of scenarios for everyone. why blame another person going through the same category of struggle when it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with the rest of society and their ability to be perceived as the male or female they are? just because we don't have that ability, we're an outcasted group by default, so blaming other in that same boat is about the worst thing you can do.

* i'm mtf, and i've actually just reached a point where i feel like i wouldn't want to be someone else, because i've gotten to really like myself. being reborn cisgender would change those things i learned to appreciate most.

when it comes to surgery, I will say that part is easier for MTF. Hands down. Because the science isn't there yet for a really good FTM bottom surgery at a decent price. And top surgery for FTM is a bear.

Other than that, I have to disagree with the OP. FTM can grow a beard after HRT, their voices may drop on their own from HRT, Testosterone can make the face more masculine...a bit more easily than Estrogen can make a face feminine.

MTF still needs electrolysis or laser for the face, waxing or shaving may still be required, and you can't rise the voice box when it's been lowered so no amount of HRT will fix a MTF voice and I personally do not know any FTM who got FFS in order to look more masculine. On the other hand, lotsa MTF has gotten FFS.

I think specifically passing is much easier for FTMs, and I take passing to mean with clothes on.  It's also easier because a female can dress and present masculine without being noticed much.  They're just seen as butch lesbians which is pretty acceptable. Whereas if a guy doesn't pass and wears makeup and a dress, they would be stared at and perhaps even snickered at and ridiculed.

I do think that MTFs have it way better in the surgery department where they can get fully functional and aesthetically authentic results.

I don't think any of this means that anyone is dissing MTFs, it just is what it is.

Quote from: Annah on December 25, 2011, 08:45:50 PM
when it comes to surgery, I will say that part is easier for MTF. Hands down. Because the science isn't there yet for a really good FTM bottom surgery at a decent price. And top surgery for FTM is a bear.

Other than that, I have to disagree with the OP. FTM can grow a beard after HRT, their voices may drop on their own from HRT, Testosterone can make the face more masculine...a bit more easily than Estrogen can make a face feminine.

MTF still needs electrolysis or laser for the face, waxing or shaving may still be required, and you can't rise the voice box when it's been lowered so no amount of HRT will fix a MTF voice and I personally do not know any FTM who got FFS in order to look more masculine. On the other hand, lotsa MTF has gotten FFS.

i understand that testosterone does those things, but your bones are bones. you'll still have the female bone structure once everything is fused. that happens quicker for someone female bodied. you could get a beard, but that's just one thing. ftm can get a beard just as mtf can get breasts. ftms voices drop on hrt only, and they have no ability to modulate their voice. they will need to wait for hormones to do it. plus, an mtf will get more female skin texture, more female fat distribution. those things really change your overall appearance by alot. females also have fuller lips. i'm thinking estrogen does it. just because MTF need to wax/shave doesn't really mean anything. ftm still have to bind, deal with periods, deal with the penis they can't get even if they wanted, and some of them end up pregnant and responsible to assume that responsibility. i've seen it before on here, where an ftm could go on hrt since they got pregnant. you could say "well, it's a choice." felix already said he was raped, and there is heat of the moment sometimes, so i think it's equal. mtf shouldn't just sit and moan about their oppressor.

Everything I have read on the subject seems to indicate that while female is the default biological gender, male is the default social gender.
Apparently it takes something like four female visual cues to equal one male visual cue. 
That is, people are socially programmed to see a male if at all possible.  A poorly-passing MtF will be seen as a man in a dress rather than as a really masculine woman, unless there are really obvious overriding factors.  Whereas a poorly-passing FtM will tend to be seen as a feminine male.


Karen.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on December 25, 2011, 11:53:58 PM
i understand that testosterone does those things, but your bones are bones. you'll still have the female bone structure once everything is fused. that happens quicker for someone female bodied. you could get a beard, but that's just one thing. ftm can get a beard just as mtf can get breasts. ftms voices drop on hrt only, and they have no ability to modulate their voice. they will need to wait for hormones to do it. plus, an mtf will get more female skin texture, more female fat distribution. those things really change your overall appearance by alot. females also have fuller lips. i'm thinking estrogen does it. just because MTF need to wax/shave doesn't really mean anything. ftm still have to bind, deal with periods, deal with the penis they can't get even if they wanted, and some of them end up pregnant and responsible to assume that responsibility. i've seen it before on here, where an ftm could go on hrt since they got pregnant. you could say "well, it's a choice." felix already said he was raped, and there is heat of the moment sometimes, so i think it's equal. mtf shouldn't just sit and moan about their oppressor.

It takes much longer to grow breasts proportionate to the body than it does for a transguy to start growing facial hair. After two years of HRT,a girl would be extremely lucky to have b-c cup. After two years of hrt, Ive seen guys sporting goatees.

Testosterone also drops the voice. A transwoman has to ALWAYS work on their voice 24/7; every single time I talk I have to raise my voice box.

I agree with the binding issue...hence why I stated "aside" from the surgery aspects.

A MTF has to wax, shave, electrolysis, or laser to get the hair off. FTM can let it grow out.

Society has a tendency of judging a MTF more harshly than a FTM. If a transgirl doesn't pass well then any form of feminine articles of clothing such as skirt, tights, etc will be looked at in a sense of shame, ridicule, and misogyny. A FTM who wears jeans, slacks, button down shirt or polo hardly gets a second glance unless you are a conservative Mennonite.

Yes, internally, MTF has issues of periods unless they get a mastectomy but to the outside world, people do not know when they are menstruating. Many FTM I know gets a hysterectomy that is approved by their insurance to do away with estrogen production and periods. MTF, unless they had a job that caters to transgender benefits cannot get an orchi covered by insurance.

A Doctor can write up surgery for a mastectomy where it can be covered if they have the insurance for it. MTF cannot get Breast Augmentation covered at the present time.

FTM can usually walk into a department store and try on slacks and buy boxers. MTF who walks into a department store and tries on dresses and panties can be given a moutful by a religious employee at Macys.

Yes, FTM has it rough too. I am not denying it, but it's not exactly even Steven across the board.

Quote from: Annah on December 26, 2011, 12:36:55 AM
It takes much longer to grow breasts proportionate to the body than it does for a transguy to start growing facial hair. After two years of HRT,a girl would be extremely lucky to have b-c cup. After two years of hrt, Ive seen guys sporting goatees.

Testosterone also drops the voice. A transwoman has to ALWAYS work on their voice 24/7; every single time I talk I have to raise my voice box.

I agree with the binding issue...hence why I stated "aside" from the surgery aspects.

A MTF has to wax, shave, electrolysis, or laser to get the hair off. FTM can let it grow out.

Society has a tendency of judging a MTF more harshly than a FTM. If a transgirl doesn't pass well then any form of feminine articles of clothing such as skirt, tights, etc will be looked at in a sense of shame, ridicule, and misogyny. A FTM who wears jeans, slacks, button down shirt or polo hardly gets a second glance unless you are a conservative Mennonite.

Yes, internally, MTF has issues of periods unless they get a mastectomy but to the outside world, people do not know when they are menstruating. Many FTM I know gets a hysterectomy that is approved by their insurance to do away with estrogen production and periods. MTF, unless they had a job that caters to transgender benefits cannot get an orchi covered by insurance.

A Doctor can write up surgery for a mastectomy where it can be covered if they have the insurance for it. MTF cannot get Breast Augmentation covered at the present time.

FTM can usually walk into a department store and try on slacks and buy boxers. MTF who walks into a department store and tries on dresses and panties can be given a moutful by a religious employee at Macys.

Yes, FTM has it rough too. I am not denying it, but it's not exactly even Steven across the board.

for me, it was different. i'm on hormones for over a year, and i have a b cup breast which is proportional to my body. my voice is naturally female with no modulation, but i really can't see how having to modulate it is such a bad thing. does it really matter that you resonate it from a different place? if you've practiced it enough, it eventually becomes natural, and your brain basically loses the ability to use the male voice. even at that, people work on their voices all the time. maybe it's not as dramatic as needing to modulate it differently to sound like the other sex, but voice is something people work on all the time regardless. i would rather just do it and think nothing more of it. it sounds like an outcasting type of statement to say "A transwoman has to ALWAYS work on their voice 24/7; every single time I talk I have to raise my voice box."

i don't know, that's just the way i think. i would rather not shrink myself if it's not necessary.

All of the FTM I know locally have jobs. Only 1 of the MTF I know has a job. There are 3 MTF for every transman in our IRL group.

When MTF have the same hire rate as FTM locally I will change my perception that FTM have more passing privilage.

I agree with Annah. If you compare all the FTM's and MTF's together, I'm sure most of the FTM's you wouldn't even know they were born biologically female. It is way much easier for them to pass simply by being on HRT for a few years.

  

Unless they know everyone's story and have been in everyone's shoes,
I think no body has the right to judge who has it harder.

I think no body has the right to judge who has it harder.

It does not appear to be all that hard, everybody has it easier than I do seems to cover all the bases.