Quote from: raya on January 01, 2012, 08:56:06 PM
If "Appearances" and "sex" are why you are transitioning, more power to you. Nobody is denying you your motivation or your right to transition. All I ask is that you allow others the same courtesy.

See above about why I transitioned.

I do show others the courtesty - i don't question why they transitioned. The purpose of this thread was to see how important popularity and appearances are to people here.

Quote from: 0451 on January 01, 2012, 09:04:23 PM
I think I'd rather be the gay dude.  Not having a social life or sex, and having to look at my ugly self in the mirror would be just as upsetting as looking in the mirror with dysphoria.  The other thing I should mention is that ugliness =/= no social life.  Plenty of ugly people have friends.  So you're handicapping the female choice big time.

Before everyone jumps on me- let me explain.  This does not mean I am transitioning purely so I can be a pretty girl.  I'd be content being a 4/10 so to speak.  Dysphoria for me is very appearance and socialization related.  If I just looked like an ugly man in a dress, and nobody accepted me, and I have no friends, I don't think my mental state would be much better.  I'd still have dysphoria of a sort.  There are other neuroses than GID- crippling depression would hardly be any better.  At least as a gay dude I'd have something to distract me from it.  Ultimately the question is one of happiness.  Just being a woman isn't magically going to save you from depression, anxiety, and anger from lack of sex, low self esteem, and no social contact.  Life as a women isn't all lollipops and vaginas!  If you think this, you are hardly any better than somebody who is transitioning solely to be pretty!

However in my case, neither option is likely.  I am not a gay man, nor am I interested in m/m sex.  Also, I am fairly young and good looking.  I think with the proper effort, I should be a pretty girl.  I'm not sure the question applies- I'm not gay now.  Would I become gay?  If this is the case, is it unreasonable to question if I still have GID?

For me it's a question of going from a decent looking straight guy with GID to a (hopefully) decent looking bi girl without GID.

+1 to this ... Also, you clarified my point precisely. Thanks!!

Quote from: 0451 on January 01, 2012, 09:47:55 PM
Allow me to rephrase that- If I were an extremely ugly women (even if passing), it would still be hard to look in the mirror.  Why would I want to go from hating to what I see in the mirror to hating what I see in the mirror?  I guess passing makes the question a whole lot harder, but even still, like I said- I'd rather be an otherwise happy/psychologically normal gay guy with GID (inasmuch as one can be otherwise happy with GID) than a miserable woman with all the psychological baggage that comes from body image issues and social isolation and sexual frustration.  I think at least.

It's a question of GID vs. body image issues, social isolation, anxiety, and no sex.  Both angles come with a side serving of depression.  You really lose either way.  May as well get sex, good looks, and a healthy social life out of the deal.

Exactly - and I get blasted for even questioning why one would rather be an ugly and depressed hetero woman than a hot gay man if given a chance to redo life with either those two choices as a blank human slate being.

i would want to be an ugly woman because if other people have problems with me i always ask myself :



and the answer is always : nope.

Quote from: Zenda on January 01, 2012, 09:39:58 PM

An Old or A Young Woman (how to find them)

Metta Zenda

lol, I remember this illusion - when I saw it for the first time some years ago, I saw BOTH the young and old woman simulatenously.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 10:25:06 PM
lol, I remember this illusion - when I saw it for the first time some years ago, I saw BOTH the young and old woman simulatenously.

Kia Ora Ms Daz,

To see both is good [ones perception is balanced so to speak], however to see 'just' the person [in a non judgmental way] is even better ! IMHO!

Metta Zenda

  Actually for some ts transitioning is a matter of life and death, they would rather die then live as a guy in any aspect which includes being a gay guy. For them looking female is important but it is not the deciding factor in wether or not they should do this. I guess it depends on the level of dysphoria one feels about their body, some have it worse then others. 

  I personally would rather transition even if I wasn't pretty. For someone that is truly ts asking them if they would rather be a gay man is kind of insulting if you ask me. I don't want to be a man anything.....i'd rather be an ugly woman and be comfortable in my own skin then be someone i'm not just to make others comfortable around me.

  If I couldn't transition i'd probably kill myself, that's how strongly I feel about it. Again it all depends on your level of dysphoria.

 

Quote from: Zarania on January 01, 2012, 10:22:37 PM
i would want to be an ugly woman because if other people have problems with me i always ask myself :



and the answer is always : nope.

  LOL that made my day! 

Quote from: Asha on January 01, 2012, 10:50:16 PM
  Actually for some ts transitioning is a matter of life and death, they would rather die then live as a guy in any aspect which includes being a gay guy. For them looking female is important but it is not the deciding factor in wether or not they should do this. I guess it depends on the level of dysphoria one feels about their body, some have it worse then others. 

  I personally would rather transition even if I wasn't pretty. For someone that is truly ts asking them if they would rather be a gay man is kind of insulting if you ask me. I don't want to be a man anything.....i'd rather be an ugly woman and be comfortable in my own skin then be someone i'm not just to make others comfortable around me.

  If I couldn't transition i'd probably kill myself, that's how strongly I feel about it. Again it all depends on your level of dysphoria.

Right - nothing i didn't already know. Your deep gender dyshporia is obviouly the significant factor in your transition and it is no less valid than any other factor that comes into play such as looks nor it is any more superior.

Transition includes altering appearances, so I don't see what the big fuss is about drawing a correlatioin between quality of life, happiness, and popularity with appearances.

Sorry but it is kinda hiding your head in the sand if you pretend ugly or beautiful/handsome appearances have zero impact on self-esteem and quality of life.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:08:21 PM
Sorry but it is kinda hiding your head in the sand if you pretend ugly or beautiful/handsome appearances have zero impact on self-esteem and quality of life.

No one is saying it doesn't impact ones self-esteem and quality of life.   

Some people just don't care what others think and are happy just being themselves, is that hard to understand?

I realize this entire thread is hypothetical, but just keep in mind the saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  You can do all you want to make yourself pretty, someone may still find you unattractive.  Thus, it really does come down to an image of self-liking.  If I could [hypothetically] find a way to make my ugliness bearable and work for my liking, well, that's all that really matters.  If I couldn't, I'd still be content in knowing I wasn't the very thing I despise once being, whether having been good looking or not.

Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 01, 2012, 11:26:01 PM
If I couldn't, I'd still be content in knowing I wasn't the very thing I despise once being, whether good looking or not.

+ 1 Amy, I feel the same way.

Quote from: Asha on January 01, 2012, 11:17:48 PM
No one is saying it doesn't impact ones self-esteem and quality of life.   

Some people just don't care what others think and are happy just being themselves, is that hard to understand?

That is a typical defensive mechanism and rather Pollyanna Sunshine - "I don't care about what others think". Reality check - we all do deep inside. Evolution designed human beings to be social mammals, dependent on each other for support and nuturing.

We just tell ourselves and others "I don't care about what others think" to mask our fears, insecurities, and unmet needs.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
That is a typical defensive mechanism and rather Pollyanna Sunshine - "I don't care about what others think". Reality check - we all do deep inside. Evolution designed human beings to be social mammals, dependent on each other for support and nuturing.

I get hit on by men when I leave hayward... Would I waste my time transitioning if I couldn't land a straight guy(straight is a relative term here)...No I wouldn't.

To me, being trans is more about appearances than feeling "female". I am the same person I was as before...Just lookin more fabulous.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
We just tell ourselves and others "I don't care about what others think" to mask our fears, insecurities, and unmet needs.

Of course otherwise we'd spend all day in our houses worrying about what people would think about this or that so we'd never do anything, we'd never live our lives.

But you seem to care way too much about what others think.

Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 11:43:39 PM
Of course otherwise we'd spend all day in our houses worrying about what people would think about this or that so we'd never do anything, we'd never live our lives.

But you seem to care way too much about what others think.

Actually it's important to care what others think.

I am almost 30. I want to live the life of a professional...which means ultimately conformity. Something I look forward to doin.

Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 11:43:39 PM
Of course otherwise we'd spend all day in our houses worrying about what people would think about this or that so we'd never do anything, we'd never live our lives.

But you seem to care way too much about what others think.

I was upfront about having looks being one of the reasons for my transition and I got blasted for that - yes, I care about what others think about how I look; at least I am not deluding myself or hiding my head in the sand. I value good looks just as much as I do intelligence, compassion, etc. If it is shallow to say you would prefer to stay a hot and popular gay guy, then it is a sad day when you don't realize that appearances and happiness go in hand and has nothing to do with superficiality. It is just how it is. Evolution designed us to select the most good looiking people to procreate.

I gotta give Syms29 a +1 because in spite of her craziness, at least she is honest that appearance is an important deciding factor for her to transition or not.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
That is a typical defensive mechanism and rather Pollyanna Sunshine - "I don't care about what others think". Reality check - we all do deep inside. Evolution designed human beings to be social mammals, dependent on each other for support and nuturing.

We just tell ourselves and others "I don't care about what others think" to mask our fears, insecurities, and unmet needs.

Your reality and mine must be different.. I really don't care, something my therapist spent a rather annoying hour digging around trying to disprove. I have enough family and friends in my life who are caring and supportive, that I'm able to not care what the rest of the world thinks. I'm happy with who I am and where I'm heading.. On the topic of sex, I have 2 guys and a girl who are attracted to me and happy to oblige..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 02, 2012, 12:10:59 AM
Your reality and mine must be different.. I really don't care, something my therapist spent a rather annoying hour digging around trying to disprove. I have enough family and friends in my life who are caring and supportive, that I'm able to not care what the rest of the world thinks. I'm happy with who I am and where I'm heading.. On the topic of sex, I have 2 guys and a girl who are attracted to me and happy to oblige..

Something must have happened to embitter you to the point where you truly feel like you don't indeed care about what others think. Perhaps constant ridicule or harassment to the point where you become volcanic and had enough?

Yeah, that is true - some need to really shut down all feelings about what others think to survive. I am just saying it is a normal human trait and to say otherwise is hiding your head in the sand.

Anyhooo.... congrats! Sounds like your socia life is taking off!

Yes, looks are important to some, but surely not all (I for one do care, but it is not the reason I am transitioning).  If no one claimed to care, none of us would be concerned with passing.  BUT, as said; passing does not necessarily equal being attractive, and vice versa.  As for option #1 - it cannot be assumed that just because a handful of trans people were once content with their previous gender, that all of us were; this is simply not the case.  I could not be happy as a gay male, and I can assure you the "gay" part is not the issue.  I despise once being male, despite acknowledging it.  Hell, for all I know, as a guy I could have been unattractive, and for all I know once my transition is complete I could be unattractive as a woman (despite how much I do care about my looks) - that's life.  Not every woman who has less-than-glam looks is unhappy, and not every gay guy who has charming looks is happy.  We are who we are and make peace with that first; being attractive is merely an added bonus.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 02, 2012, 12:15:11 AM
Ya, I care about how I look. A lot. I was also suicidally depressed when I was trying to live as a guy. Where is option 3) corpse? 'Cause that would have been my choice.

lol don't jump on me but did you ever try being gay when presenting as a male ? Just wondering