Quote from: kelly_aus on January 02, 2012, 02:36:42 AM
Not for everyone it seems.. And this seems to be something you don't get..

Oh, I do get it really - the unhappier you are with yourself, the less you care about your appearance leading to a decline in popularity. That is a fact. People have commented here that once they transitioned, they were happier and started taking steps to improve their appearances.

So, it is all interwined, really.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 02:31:55 AM
That is why I mixed it up by throwing in the homosexual quality - which apparently stirred the pot for some. heh.

No hun, what stirred the pot was the implication that we cannot incorporate any true emotions [in relation to being trans] into our decision.  Many of us have emotions leading us to become defensive toward any influences suggesting being an attractive [happy] man of any type (sexual orientation irrelevant) should be more desirable than being an unattractive [miserable] woman.  But again, to imply that we cannot incorporate those emotions into our decision, it would seem you're merely asking, "Would you rather be happy or sad?"; man, woman and homosexual merely being adjectives causing confusion (unintentionally, I presume), offering no direct purpose without emotion being involved in the answer.

I get what you were asking, I really do.  But it just doesn't work that way.  We can't provide an answer without true emotion; any attempts to do so naturally and automatically would seem to lead all of us to choose option A; any denial of this is merely emotion becoming involved.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 02:40:34 AM
Oh, I do get it really - the unhappier you are with yourself, the less you care about your appearance leading to a decline in popularity. That is a fact. People have commented here that once they transitioned, they were happier and started taking steps to improve their appearances.

So, it is all interwined, really.

I'm not unhappy.. Not at all, and trust me, I know what unhappiness is.. I'm quite happy being me.. However that might turn out..

At this point, I can only assume there's a difference in cultures. I'm an Australian.. and we Aussie's are well known for not giving a rat's ass what people think..

I have to agree with Amy here -- she explained it perfectly, though I do understand MsDazz a bit.  I do think that being attractive is great and can be a real privilege especially for a woman.  I think that most people who are unattractive get used to it early in life and accept it while hopefully doing what they can to make themselves more attractive.  I don't think this is being shallow, but just taking pride in one's appearance.  Anyway, I think people get over that they'll never be beauty queens or have men constantly chasing them early and move on, and work on other qualities and talents which make them attractive.

I think if a beautiful woman gets in an accident where her face is disfigured then that would be so much more difficult to cope with than the person who was unattractive in the first place.  I think this is similar to the thinking of transitioning from man to woman, because the change is more conscious and sudden and the idea of appearance is more important.  I'm probably not making sense and not articulating this very well, but maybe someone can make sense of this!

Kelly, you are a very pretty lady.

Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 02:46:31 AM
No hun, what stirred the pot was the implication that we cannot incorporate any true emotions [in relation to being trans] into our decision.  Many of us have emotions leading us to become defensive toward any influences suggesting being an attractive [happy] man of any type (sexual orientation irrelevant) should be more desirable than being an unattractive [miserable] woman.  But again, to imply that we cannot incorporate those emotions into our decision, it would seem you're merely asking, "Would you rather be happy or sad?"; man, woman and homosexual merely being adjectives causing confusion (unintentionally, I presume), offering no direct purpose without emotion being involved in the answer.

I get what you were asking, I really do.  But it just doesn't work that way.  We can't provide an answer without true emotion; any attempts to do so naturally and automatically would seem to lead all of us to choose option A; any denial of this is merely emotion becoming involved.

It is really similar to the "If you knew you couldn't pass, would you transition, anyway?" thread. That thread was all about appearances. Some passable people there admitted that they wouldn't have transitioned if they knew they couldn't pass or become beautiful in the first place. This is only different because I threw the word "gay" into the picture that got people riled up.


Maybe I should have said, "Would you rather be ugly but popular or hot but lonely?" ?

No worries 

Nonetheless, you did get quite the replies from this thread, no? 

It doesn't really have anything to do with the word gay being in the question, people who have said they would pick option #2 have said it is because they're not to be a guys, not that they don't want to be a gay guy. But a guy full stop.

It may not be your intention but throughout this thread it's felt like you've jumped on people just for saying that for them appearance is the most important thing and then being an attractive guy would be no better or in a lot of case worse than being an ugly girl. Because they have a different opinion to you, and then you trying to re-enforce your own ideals on them.

Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 03:08:11 AM
No worries 

Nonetheless, you did get quite the replies from this thread, no? 

I guess so - i learned quite few things about you guys, heh

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on January 02, 2012, 03:12:11 AM
It doesn't really have anything to do with the word gay being in the question, people who have said they would pick option #2 have said it is because they're not to be a guys, not that they don't want to be a gay guy. But a guy full stop.

It may not be your intention but throughout this thread it's felt like you've jumped on people just for saying that for them appearance is the most important thing and then being an attractive guy would be no better or in a lot of case worse than being an ugly girl. Because they have a different opinion to you, and then you trying to re-enforce your own ideals on them.

I never said which option you should choose nor said which one is better. I merely presented the choices and got a firing squad in return, lmao

What firing squad? All I see is people saying they pick option 2 because they're not a guy giving reasons for it and you feeling attacked by them for no reason.

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on January 02, 2012, 03:42:26 AM
What firing squad? All I see is people saying they pick option 2 because they're not a guy and you saying people are flaming you by doing so. ;/

Yeah, I was curious about their reasons for picking option 2 and they got defensive. Then flaming me for asserting that appearances and popularity are deciding factors for some people to transition or not, heh.

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 03:46:02 AM
Yeah, I was curious about their reasons for picking option 2 and they got defensive. Then flaming me for asserting that appearances and popularity are deciding factors for some people to transition or not, heh.

The only real issue I have in this thread is the assertion that I must be unhappy because I'm able to not care what people who mean nothing to me think.. Something that my therapist assured me was a pretty healthy state of mind - only after he had spent an hour or so picking through my head..

My mum told me that I shouldn't transition because i'll be an ugly woman, then on another occasion she told me that if I went through with this then i'd spend the rest of my life alone.

My answer to these two statements is simple: I'd rather be an ugly woman who dies alone but old & happy with herself than live my life in misery as a man who despises his body, if I try to keep living as a man because it's what others want then I don't know that i'll even make it to old age

Quote from: Jane on January 02, 2012, 02:55:13 PM
My mum told me that I shouldn't transition because i'll be an ugly woman, then on another occasion she told me that if I went through with this then i'd spend the rest of my life alone.

My answer to these two statements is simple: I'd rather be an ugly woman who dies alone but old & happy with herself than live my life in misery as a man who despises his body, if I try to keep living as a man because it's what others want then I don't know that i'll even make it to old age

Yeah we pretty much would prefer to die women, but like I pointed out earlier, this is just a superficial "this or that" dealing with the value of appearance/popularity to individuals.

The option of being gay just threw people for a loop. 

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 05:11:23 PM

Like I told Zenda, disregard for a moment about how high or low your sex drive is and your sexual orientation -

I guess this thread could be pared down to the very bare bones - "Is it better to be gay and popular or trans and unpopular?"  Since transition is based on changing on how you appear to others and being gay doesnt require transition, which would it be worth it?

Err, if one disregards extremely important aspects of themselves to answer this question, how is it an honest answer about the fork they would take?  It is no longer them answering the question, but some hypothetical person that is not like them at all.  In the case of someone of my nature, being stuck with the options of being male (gay or not) in general or being forever alone would both probably drive me to suicide.

Quote from: Cori on January 02, 2012, 03:28:35 PM
Err, if one disregards extremely important aspects of themselves to answer this question, how is it an honest answer about the fork they would take?  It is no longer them answering the question, but some hypothetical person that is not like them at all.  In the case of someone of my nature, being stuck with the options of being male (gay or not) in general or being forever alone would both probably drive me to suicide.

Putting aside your deep dyshoric feelings for a second (you can do that, can't you?), can you fathom being with another man as a man and actually happy about it?

I thought not - gender dysphoric or not, it has nothing to do with it... it is internalized homophobia from growing up in an non-LGBT community that is making the fork scenario unpleasant for most people here.

It is already terrible to even be a man in the first place - I get it. But - the "ewww, and I would have to be gay also?" factor is the dealbreaker to this fork scenario.

Only one or two posters out of 20+ posters here was even open minded to acknowledge that having a gay existence might not be so bad after all.

Again, I am not pushing my agenda on anyone. I have none...

Just thought I'd share my ruminations after a good night's sleep (lying on my bed in my pink bathrobe as I type this )

Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 04:14:13 PM
I thought not - gender dysphoric or not, it has nothing to do with it... it is internalized homophobia from growing up in an non-LGBT community that is making the fork scenario unpleasant for most people here.

No, not quite.  I grew up in a very open LGBT minded area and one of my good friends has been open about his homosexuality since high school.  Nonetheless, I cannot fathom being a [gay] guy.  Why?  Because I do not want to be a guy, not because I cringe at the thought of liking men.

But hell, you know what, yes - I guess if I was to completely throw away anything I've ever felt and known about gender identity and sexual orientation and start a completely brand-spankin'-new life, then perhaps yes, I could be a gay guy.  But my gosh hun, given that, I find this question to be quite pointless; the answer inadvertently is always going to be A.  I'm almost convinced you planned this thoroughly, knowing the answer would have to be A, just to cause mass amounts of confusion.  If you want honest answers, you will have to allow us to incorporate true feeling into the answers.  Otherwise the entire question was rhetorical, as you already knew the answer.

You are beginning to contradict yourself.  You say it's a simple hypothetical choice that requires no real emotion put into it.  You've given two options, most of us having picked B.  Thus, that should be it.  But it's not, is it?  No.  You want to argue why B is not a legit choice and why we all should really have picked A instead.  Those who counter-argue are simply misguided, as it must be their suppressed subconscious homophobia causing such a reaction.  Please.  Your argument suggesting being a guy could be awesome is just as equal to our argument suggesting being a guy is not so awesome; it's opinion, not fact.  I didn't like being a guy, plain and simple.  There is no underlying reason in addition to my transsexualism, it just is what it is.  Let it go.

I'm pretty confident when I say that I'm sure that every single person in this thread that picked option #2 never once had the thought of "ew no why would I want to be gay" and more had the thought of "I'm a girl, why would I want to be a guy". And rather than not fathoming being a gay guy, they can't fathom being a guy at all.

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on January 02, 2012, 05:25:24 PM
I'm pretty confident when I say that I'm sure that every single person in this thread that picked option #2 never once had the thought of "ew no why would I want to be gay" and more had the thought of "I'm a girl, why would I want to be a guy". And rather than not fathoming being a gay guy, they can't fathom being a guy at all.

Exactly this.