What defines you as a man physical characteristics aside?

Hmm...my thing is that I don't feel that man and masculinity are related at all.

What defines me as a man is my identity as one.

I identify Masculinity as a natural part of ones Gender Identity that someone either have or do not have, and something that cannot be "acted" by trying to be masculine if you are not.
Either you have it, or you don't, regardless of Birth-assigned Sex.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 01, 2012, 02:56:50 PM
I identify Masculinity as a natural part of ones Gender Identity that someone either have or do not have, and something that cannot be "acted" by trying to be masculine if you are not.
Either you have it, or you don't, regardless of Birth-assigned Sex.

I don't agree that masculinity/femininity are tied with gender identity.  If it were there would be no masculine women and no feminine men. 

Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 03:45:01 PM
I don't agree that masculinity/femininity are tied with gender identity.  If it were there would be no masculine women and no feminine men.

Well, firstly, how do you define a masculine Woman and a feminine Man? I know that people not always defines those the same way, so how do you personally define them?
Secondly, Those people could just aswell be gendervarianted without realizing it, and thus just sticks to the label as "Man" and "Woman" anyways, as they are not disturbed by their o(Not all gendervarianted people are).

For instance, I once spoke to a woman that referred to herself as bisexual and very apparently had nothing against her body as she loved using it in threesomes with studs(  ), but, she reasoned, talked and behaved exactly like a man, and all I thought of when I spoke with her, was "Guy, guy, guy(In womans body but happy with it)"

So, how do you know that, for instance, the Masculinity are not part of a maculine womans gender identity although she is just not "bothered" with referring to herself as a woman?

Quote from: Bishounen on January 02, 2012, 09:37:20 AM
For instance, I once spoke to a woman that referred to herself as bisexual and very apparently had nothing against her body as she loved using it in threesomes with studs(  ), but, she reasoned, talked and behaved exactly like a man, and all I thought of when I spoke with her, was "Guy, guy, guy(In womans body but happy with it)"

This is somewhat troubling.   It's pretty easy for any of us to read into things, and project on to other people, but you're sort of outright deciding her identity for her.   Maybe she's a trans guy in denial, maybe she isn't.  Not your call.   

It's important to remember that, like gender, "masculine" and "feminine" are merely social constructs related to socially determined gender roles.   People have certain traits that we've determined are "masculine" but none of them make someone a man because...

Quote from: Nygeel on January 01, 2012, 02:35:05 PM
What defines me as a man is my identity as one.

Thread over.  This is about all there is to be said.

Quote from: Twin Hammer Tommy on January 02, 2012, 11:34:06 AM
This is somewhat troubling.   It's pretty easy for any of us to read into things, and project on to other people, but you're sort of outright deciding her identity for her.

I am hardly deciding her identity. Or atleast, definitely not any more so than the foregoing poster that decided that gender expression is not connected to the gender identity of the people that expressed crossgender behaviour.

QuoteMaybe she's a trans guy in denial, maybe she isn't.  Not your call. 

I doubt it, as she really enoyed her female body, something that not even a T-person in denial does.
But, let's suppose she were, then that would mean that you are saying that, as she acted male, then she could indeed be a FTM, although you are saying that behaviour do not have with the true Gender Identity to do. Which way is it?
Secondly, the issue is hardly your call either.

QuoteIt's important to remember that, like gender, "masculine" and "feminine" are merely social constructs related to socially determined gender roles.  People have certain traits that we've determined are "masculine" but none of them make someone a man because...

Firstly: It is important to remember that the above claim is one of those fashionable Genderfeministic nonsense claims that have been knitted together on a coffebreak and then basuned out as a politically correct truth.
Secondly: David Reimer and Caroline Cossey would strongly disagree with you.

Thirdly, you are just saying right now, that Transsexuals are not real, as they can successfully learn how to behave like their birth-assigned Sex, as Gender aswell as Gender expression, is merely social constructs.
Something that sounds all too familiar from the Anti-gay and trans activists.

QuoteThread over.  This is about all there is to be said.

Whether the thread is over or not, is for a Moderator to decide.

1.  Are you worth your salt?  Really, we're working here.  Are you helping, or are we carrying you? 
2.  Are you good to your word?

If you really have those two things nailed down then you've got it all.  Without those two, you're just one more worthless person.  That's why someone like Hillary Clinton is considered to be a very 'masculine' women, and a woman who has always been OK with the 'boys club' and the 'boy's club' with her.  Because she works her ass off, and if she says she's going to do it, it's done.

The boys' club is not going to like you/accept you because you've got the biggest dick (they don't care, they like pussy), or because you're posing as some ruff-tough-creampuff, or because you wear boxers and not lace.  They are going to like and accept you to the degree that you carry your own weight, and at times, carry other people's too - the 'team player' concept - and can be counted on to do the work, no matter how much you don't want to.

And masculinity or femininity (though there are shades of difference as to how its defined) nobody will care about anything else if you can't be counted on to tell the truth and take responsibility.

I wish I could be more comfortable displaying my gender expression in the way I want to. The way I'd like to express my gender is that of a feminine male, or androgynous male. The reason why I don't currently present myself as feminine or androgynous is because I want to be seen as male, and I'm struggling enough with that. I think once I'm in a comfortable place socially (my body and I are pretty good with each other already) I'll be more comfortable doing things that are seen as "not masculine."

Quote from: Nygeel on January 02, 2012, 12:19:08 PM
I wish I could be more comfortable displaying my gender expression in the way I want to. The way I'd like to express my gender is that of a feminine male, or androgynous male. The reason why I don't currently present myself as feminine or androgynous is because I want to be seen as male, and I'm struggling enough with that. I think once I'm in a comfortable place socially (my body and I are pretty good with each other already) I'll be more comfortable doing things that are seen as "not masculine."

If I were in your place, I would just ignore what the surrounding supposedly thinks and be and express myself just the way I am.
Perhaps a unnecessary question, but, unless you already have one, or have done a Mastectomy, have you tried a really strong binder?
If the onlooker cannot register any hint of female cheast on you, then you will undoubtly be registered as androgyne, regardless of hairstyle or makeup.

Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2012, 12:08:36 PM
1.  Are you worth your salt?  Really, we're working here.  Are you helping, or are we carrying you? 
2.  Are you good to your word?

If you really have those two things nailed down then you've got it all.  Without those two, you're just one more worthless person.  That's why someone like Hillary Clinton is considered to be a very 'masculine' women, and a woman who has always been OK with the 'boys club' and the 'boy's club' with her.  Because she works her ass off, and if she says she's going to do it, it's done.

The boys' club is not going to like you/accept you because you've got the biggest dick (they don't care, they like pussy), or because you're posing as some ruff-tough-creampuff, or because you wear boxers and not lace.  They are going to like and accept you to the degree that you carry your own weight, and at times, carry other people's too - the 'team player' concept - and can be counted on to do the work, no matter how much you don't want to.

And masculinity or femininity (though there are shades of difference as to how its defined) nobody will care about anything else if you can't be counted on to tell the truth and take responsibility.

Agreed

Quote from: Bishounen on January 02, 2012, 12:33:03 PM
If I were in your place, I would just ignore what the surrounding supposedly thinks and be and express myself just the way I am.
Perhaps a unnecessary question, but, unless you already have one, or have done a Mastectomy, have you tried a really strong binder?
If the onlooker cannot register any hint of female cheast on you, then you will undoubtly be registered as androgyne, regardless of hairstyle or makeup.

I can't ignore it. I'd like to not have to deal with stuff like being yelled at for needing to use the bathroom, or being called ma'am all day instead of sir. I'm wiling to sacrifice part of how I want to present myself in order to be able to do little things.
I have many binders aaand have posted pictures of myself previously in the "do I pass thread." Even when dressing in ways that aren't 100% me I'm still seen as female so...it's not really that simple.

I'm also not an androgyne.

Quote from: Nygeel on January 02, 2012, 01:10:17 PM
I can't ignore it. I'd like to not have to deal with stuff like being yelled at for needing to use the bathroom, or being called ma'am all day instead of sir. I'm wiling to sacrifice part of how I want to present myself in order to be able to do little things.
I have many binders aaand have posted pictures of myself previously in the "do I pass thread." Even when dressing in ways that aren't 100% me I'm still seen as female so...it's not really that simple.

I'm also not an androgyne.

Fair enough, I can understand that. Just figured that being read as an androgyne could be "enough" for the time being, as you stated that you would lik to express yourself as androgyneous or feminine male.
Anyway, it will most likely solve itself as the transition process develops, just as you assumed.
There are FTM's that pre-transitionally loathed everything feminine, but when they were Post-transition and now had male bodies, they found themselves to be able to express and experiment with femininity too, without any angst and even truly enjoy it.
The same with several MTF's too, that have previously hated maculine expression in regards of themselves, but have after having demasculated their bodies found that they, for instance, like strolling around in guys clothes.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 02, 2012, 01:23:23 PM
Fair enough, I can understand that. Just figured that being read as an androgyne could be "enough" for the time being, as you stated that you would lik to express yourself as androgyneous female or feminine male.
Anyway, it will most likely solve itself as the transition process develops, just as you assumed.
There are FTM's that pre-transitionally loathed everything feminine, but when they were Post-transition and now had male bodies, they found themselves to be able to express and experiment with femininity too, without any angst and even truly enjoy it.
The same with several MTF's too, that have previously hated maculine expression in regards of themselves, but have after having demasculated their bodies found that they, for instance, like strolling around in guys clothes.

Well, for me I have expressed myself femininely by dressing in drag pre-transition. And I didn't say androgynous female. Feminine male or androgynous male is how I'd like to be able to express my gender (although, I'd like to be seen as male over being seen as feminine/androgynous).

Blargh. I meant "androgyneous male", not "androgyneous female", sorry.
I have a habit of sometimes thinking of too many things at the same time.

I've asked myself this question quite a few times recently.  I'm still not sure of my own personal definition of "masculinity" and "femininity".  But since you asked for individual opinions, I'll go ahead and share my thoughts.  I'm not looking to start an argument, this is just my evolving opinion.  I realize everyone can display these traits, this is just my take on things.

Disclaimer out of the way, some traits I consider "masculine":  bravery, courage, confidence, responsibility, strength (both physical and emotional), assertive, honorable, hard-working, independent, dominant (personality), disciplined, active (versus passive), leader, self-initiative, ambitious, competitive, thick-skinned.

bravery, courage, confidence, responsibility, strength (both physical and emotional), assertive, honorable, hard-working, independent, dominant (personality), disciplined, active (versus passive), leader, self-initiative, ambitious, competitive, thick-skinned.

Are not a lot of those things also extremely feminine also?  Or better, just attractive qualities in humans period?

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

Quote from: Bishounen on January 02, 2012, 12:03:04 PM
I doubt it, as she really enoyed her female body, something that not even a T-person in denial does.
But, let's suppose she were, then that would mean that you are saying that, as she acted male, then she could indeed be a FTM, although you are saying that behaviour do not have with the true Gender Identity to do. Which way is it?

Any of this would be relevant if I'd said any of what you're saying I did.   Some trans people actually are comfortable in their bodies.  Dysphoria isn't universal, and even for those of us that do have it it's not the same experience for everyone.    In any case, all I was saying was that her "masculine" behaviors do nothing to inform us of her gender identity.   Of course she might be trans.  Anyone might be.  We can't read their thoughts after all.   We can only go by what they tell us.  (that being why one's identity as a man or woman is the only important factor in determining if they are a man or a woman, not how masculine or feminine they act/think/speak/etc.)

Quote
Secondly: David Reimer and Caroline Cossey would strongly disagree with you.

I'm not familiar with Caroline Cossey, but it seems odd to me that you would use David Reimer as an example here unless you're trying to argue for gender essentialism.   Which is perplexing to me considering you go on to say..

Quote
Thirdly, you are just saying right now, that Transsexuals are not real, as they can successfully learn how to behave like their birth-assigned Sex, as Gender aswell as Gender expression, is merely social constructs.
Something that sounds all too familiar from the Anti-gay and trans activists.

...and I'm really not sure where you have pulled this from.

Your arguments to the contrary, gender and gender expression aren't the same thing.  You can wave that away as "political correctness" all you like.

Quote from: Twin Hammer Tommy on January 02, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
Any of this would be relevant if I'd said any of what you're saying I did.   Some trans people actually are comfortable in their bodies.  Dysphoria isn't universal, and even for those of us that do have it it's not the same experience for everyone.    In any case, all I was saying was that her "masculine" behaviors do nothing to inform us of her gender identity.   Of course she might be trans.  Anyone might be.  We can't read their thoughts after all.   We can only go by what they tell us.  (that being why one's identity as a man or woman is the only important factor in determining if they are a man or a woman, not how masculine or feminine they act/think/speak/etc.)

Agreed, but, you did suggest that she were an FTM in denial when I described her, which in turn, means that you judged her Identity because of her gender expression. For, if I would have described her as behaving as a fully "ordinary" female, then fact remains you would not have made that connection between her expression= FTM in denial.

QuoteI'm not familiar with Caroline Cossey, but it seems odd to me that you would use David Reimer as an example here unless you're trying to argue for gender essentialism.   Which is perplexing to me considering you go on to say..
...and I'm really not sure where you have pulled this from.

No, I am referring to David Reimer because he, as you know, was born a male but after a genital mutilation as an infant was decided to be brought up as a female, keeping his birth-assigned Se a secret, as an experiment to prove that Gender Identity aswell as Gender expression, was both merely social constructs, Or, the Gender Neutrality Theory; A hypothesis that John Money, the Psychologist that was a eager proponent of this heory, decided that David would be brought up as female, to prove this very theory.

Despite him being brought up feminine in every way, he early on developed stereotypically masculine Gender expressions; Walked like a guy, talked like a guy, behaved like a guy and so on, despite that David- or Brenda, as he was called as a "Female"- were completely unaware of ever been anything else than "female", as he still hadn't been told about his past.

So, here we have a controversial Psychologist that intended to prove that Gender aswell as Gender expression is merely social constructs and decided to bring up someone as the opposite Sex, only to disvover that this person nonetheless developed traditional charactaristics traditionally associated with the persons birth-assigned Sex.

Thoughts on this? And yes, there are several other similar cases with similar outcomes.

QuoteYour arguments to the contrary, gender and gender expression aren't the same thing.  You can wave that away as "political correctness" all you like.

If it is not the same thing, then why did you word the following like you did:

QuoteIt's important to remember that, like gender, "masculine" and "feminine" are merely social constructs related to socially determined gender roles.

Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2012, 02:36:34 PM
bravery, courage, confidence, responsibility, strength (both physical and emotional), assertive, honorable, hard-working, independent, dominant (personality), disciplined, active (versus passive), leader, self-initiative, ambitious, competitive, thick-skinned.

Are not a lot of those things also extremely feminine also?  Or better, just attractive qualities in humans period?

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

That's why I had the disclaimer.  Yes, I realize that anyone can have those traits. "I realize everyone can display those traits, this is just my take on things."  My views are always changing, not just about gender either.  Ask me the same question again next year, and my answer will likely be different.