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Killing Us Softly

Started by Bird, January 03, 2012, 04:53:24 PM

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Bird

Was watching this, I think it applies to all of us. Let's not lose our focus, or worse, lose ourselves.

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sysm29

I think Jean Kilbourne came to my college once to give a presentation.  She was excellent.
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Joelene9

  I've seen her presentations in clips in the past.  She's good in these.  I cannot get away from ads, either by browsing online or even in the supermarket.  There are ads on the shopping cart and even on the floor!  Some of these ads are as distasteful and disrespectful as those ones in her presentation.  Amazing tool, Photoshop.  It can make you into something you're not. 
  Joelene
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spacial

My objection to these sort of presentations and promotions is how they seek to vilify and hold responsible, men.

When I was growing up, I had a very thin body. I was and remain, comparatively short. I desperately sought a feminine personality, even though a feminine shape wasn't possible.

Those that I had most to fear were women. Women who objected to me as a gmale, not measuring up to what they could consider and ideal upon which they could score social points by rejecting.

At one point, the speaker asks if a man is ever expected to get into size 00 clothes. Well no. A man is expected to have  rippling muscles, a strong, silent personality, staring eyes and limited intelligence. A man is expected to fulfill an ideal as much as women.

Sensitive, intelligent types need not apply.

I have raised this point, repeatedly. To people I've been speaking to, at academic conferences and on forums such as these.

I have rarely had a positive response. I am either ignored, attacked as ignorant, criticised as pathetic or criticised for treating the problems of women as a joke.

It is taken for granted that women are being oppressed, idealised, objectified and depersonalised.

The reality is, all humans are treated in this way. The problems exist for all humans.
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Bird

I posted the video because I related to it as a woman. I have had lots of worries about breast growth since I began transitioning, as well a body image. It is funny, because you could say I have the classsic model V shape that is mentioned in the video, and am not having problems passing.

I am beginning to accept my body through, and I guess, grown up. I don't mean to undermine mens's issues, be they cis or trans, but for my specific moment, my issues are very important and I figured, any bias aside, it was important to point these issues out by posting this, because I saw many of the other women of this forum expressing similiar concerns to what I have, and others that are pointed out on the video. It is just a matter of moment and of what is the focus of the situation.

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espo

It's pretty obvious she didn't vilify men or hold them responsible, sheesh !!  The fashion industry, the advertising industry yes, but I think she went out of her way to make it clear that both men and women/ boys and girls are being manipulated in how they view the female body. 

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Nero

Quote from: spacial on January 03, 2012, 06:43:27 PM
My objection to these sort of presentations and promotions is how they seek to vilify and hold responsible, men.


Did you watch this one through? I didn't get that at all. 'Killing us softly' refers to the media not men. She also speaks about how stereotypes degrade men as well.
These media images affect young girls struggling on the path to womanhood. And I expect it has a similar effect on trans women as they try to find their way as well.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Bird

"These media images affect young girls struggling on the path to womanhood. And I expect it has a similar effect on trans women as they try to find their way as well"

Damn right what I meant!
This video did help me put things into perspective for me, and for sure it will help the other women around here. In some aspects, I am still teen and I do get badly influenced by fashion sometimes.

Though there is more to it, it has helped me feel better about breast growth. I keep wishing they get bigger and bigger even if my chest already looks very feminine and it is shape though not beautiful is just fine. It gets to a point it is not about passing anymore, but about achieving an ideal that was ingrained in me, as if I needed a big chest to be loved.
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spacial

#8
Quote from: Forum Admin on January 03, 2012, 09:29:21 PM
Did you watch this one through? I didn't get that at all. 'Killing us softly' refers to the media not men. She also speaks about how stereotypes degrade men as well.
These media images affect young girls struggling on the path to womanhood. And I expect it has a similar effect on trans women as they try to find their way as well.

Yes I did.

But the point I'm making and the issue I take such objection to is the claim, (it is much more than a suggestion), is that this is a problem for women. She makes a minor reference to the objectifying of men, but her issue is with the objectifying of women.

By doing this, she is simply perpetuating the problem. The issue is the way we are all treated as objects, expected to achieve an ideal.

Men, for example, are expected to have rippling muscles, washboard chests. in my late 20s till my mid 30s I practised karate. I could do 50 pressups or over 20 situps without losing my breath. But I never had washboard chest and my stomach always hung out a small amount. That's genetics. The same genetics which prevent many women achieving the ideals which she objects to. The problems are the same for men and women, that we are all being expected to achieve impossible and unnatural ideals.

Not a woman's issue, which she claims, but a human issue.

By presenting this issue as a largely woman's issue, she perpetuates the notion that women somehow suffer more, are more oppressed, are less free.

That is simply not true.

She plays into the hands of those that seek to control by division. Society seeks to maintain men as potential fighters and women as potential mothers. Men that fail to achieve anything less than a potentially hero ideal, or women who fail to present as potential breeding material are treated as second best.

The problems exist for all. And I'm sorry, but there is a small step from her presentation to sarcastic remarks about men's sexual performance, or all men being rapists and all fathers being potential child molesters.






Late edit. 5 January

I apologise for using the example above, which I have now struck out. It was of course, anecdotal and not evidence.

However, I suggest that, just as observing women in society, as suggested by the speaker, will demonstrate that few can conform the the unnatural norms set, the same will apply to men.

The problems are not peculiar to women at all.

Again, apologies for using personal experience.

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spacial

Sorry, you caught me slight unawares earlier. I've just remembered a better analogy.

Imagine, of you will, the issue is pollution. But only as it affects women.

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spacial

I apologise for harping on on this issue but a further thought has occured which I believe is more relevant.

The basic premise is that advertising is unnecessarily sexist. That it demeans women and creates an impression that they are available. (Or whatever).

The point about advertising is to sell a product. Advertisers have no other objectives.

The advertiser is acting on behalf of his client whose only objective is to make money and so please his shareholders.

One of the most important tasks any advertiser has to do is called positioning. That is, to have the product associated with a specific lifestyle.

We think of Coca cola and we think of a warm liquid, drunk from a clay mug by miserable people. (?)

Advertisers are often criticised for using scantly clad women to advertise cars.

The target audience for cars is men, between the ages of about 13 and 35. They may be too young to drive at 13, but will be eventually. Over 35 and men, generally, are begining to settle down.

So a target audience of men between 13 and 35.

Now the priority of almost all men between 13 and 35 is sex. You may not like it, but that is how nature made all young men.

Quote9:49 So, the violence, the abuse, is partly the chilling but logical result of this kind of objectification.

Now women are objectified in many ways: a Heineken commercial turns women into a keg of beer. A frat boys dream.

No, that has telling young boys that since they can't get a girlfriend, they can drown their sorrows in the nest best thing, a drug. It's a sad reality that all young boys dream of regular intimacy with a girl, but few achieve it. They aren't called boys for nothing.

Here, she is attempting to demonstrate with an advert, the different manner in which men are objectified.

Quote14:47 It would never happen and nor should it and believe me, this is not the kind of equality I'm fighting for. I don't want them to do this to man any more than to women but I think we can learn something from these two ads - one of which did happen, one of which never would.

She shows a picture of a naked man with his modesty covered by a long, thin towel, to suggest that the towel needs to be long because of the length of his penis. She then compares this to a previous advert which she claims say that women's breasts are always going to be inadequate. Finishing to mirth, 'Just two inches'.

The reality is that a man's penis, much more than most parts of the body, is governed by genetics. Almost all men will have a penis similar to their fathers.  The advert highlights the lie that most men seek to maintain that they do in fact have a better penis. They do this to impress women, not other men. The fault here is the expectation of women.

Quote14:58 And that is they show us, very vividly, is that men and women inhabit very different worlds. Men basically don't live in a world in which their bodies are routinely scrutinized, criticised and judged where as women and girls do.

They most certainly do. And their personalities, expectations and weaknesses are judged along with it.


Quote15:49 Women who are considered ugly ar ridiculed in advertising campaigns such as this one for a premium light beer. "Beer Goggles #2".......so there's less danger that the man will hook up with an ugly woman.

The point of the advert is that is it selling a weak beer. The girl is not ugly, she is immature. She presents herself like an immature girl, your sister perhaps. The beer is saying, after drinking this beer you will still have a chance of dating a more mature women.

Quote17:12 And this is the message that girls get when they reach adolescence - that they should disappear.

That doesn't make any sense and contradicts what the speaker has previously siad. She's grasping at straws there.

Quote17:26 Imagine a man going into a clothing store and asking for anything in a size zero.

Well, duh! Imagine any man being encouraged to see themselves as being anything other than next to Alpha male. How many men will walk into a chemist and ask for small size condoms.

This is a stupid comment and one intended to create unnecessary and artificial division.
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Inanna

I agree with spacial in that men and women are both held to absurd standards, although very different ones.  These standards are promoted by corporations to build insecurity in both genders and thus a need to buy their product or service.  However, corporations aren't entirely responsible for the standards, they only molded them.  Many forces are responsible for contributing to this problem, including religion, patriarchy and biology among others.

It's hard to say whether this always hurts women more, as it depends strongly on the individual.  Personally, the male stereotypes that I couldn't live up to destroyed my self-esteem pretty much thoroughly.  Three years into my transition, it seems female stereotypes regarding personality and behavior aren't nearly as difficult to achieve as male stereotypes.  Nor do they feel as degrading... men are expected to be these dominating, emotionless, sexually driven beasts whose exterior must never be anything less than completely masculine (including clothes and other facets of appearance), and men are naturally expected to be far more likely to perpetrate violence or sexual abuse.  If I had to make a choice, I would much rather be expected to be soft, nurturing, submissive, sweet, demure, or what not... than that.
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