Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 04, 2012, 08:40:50 PM
Although you didn't say it directly, what you did say implies that a guy who doesn't fit the regular stereotype can't be strong and tough. That's the exact kind of thinking that perpetuates the stereotype ... that men have to be manly according to this, this and this and show zero feminine traits or else they're "weak", etc. You also managed to diss females in the same sentence because female = weak, which of course we should all know by this day and age that isn't true.

If that's the kind of guy you want to be, then no one can tell you no. I just wanted to point it out.

I find it interesting that there seems to be a lot of trans guys (not necessarily here) that basically want to go for 1000x macho thing. Is it because it's the furthest thing away from the actual reality you've had to live up until you start transition? Kind of like something that can just trump all the female physical stuff and traits and upbringing? Or is it simply a kind of odd perspective of looking at the "male world" from the outside in kind of thing?

I think you're over thinking what I said. For being pre T I think I look pretty masculine already. But I can't wait for T to kick in and do it's stuff. Even though I haven't been working out much I seem stronger then a lot of the people around me. Just got a gym membership too. I was never feminine. If I was to wake up feeling feminine one day it would feel unnatural to me. I like being stronger I wouldn't want to feel weak. I just don't understand why someone would choose to be weak. The other day I was buying dog food and I carried a 60 pound bag of dog food for some lady. She literally could not carry it. She said she would have to have her neighbor take it out of her car and bring it in her house. If I was that weak I would be hitting the gym ASAP.

In my experience anyone feminine, man or woman, aren't interested in being strong. I did weight lifting in high school and the coach had us chart our progress.  He would print us out a chart graph thing so we could easily see our progress. When the feminine girls in my class saw my chart they didn't get it at all. I'm friends with one guy who's really feminine. He is the weakest guy I've ever met. I had a 25 pound barbell by the couch and he couldn't curl it. I know there is nothing stopping a feminine person from being strong, most just don't seem interested. I know not all women are weak. But the average woman is weaker than the average man. I've seen female co workers struggle to lift things that really weren't that heavy. In general if you are a female you are going to be on the weak side.

I don't know any trans people, but for myself I don't think I've changed much at all my whole life. I never had stereotypical female interests. I can't say I was raised in a female way. Yeah when I was a baby I was stuffed in a dress , but when I was 6 I cut off all my hair and started wearing boys clothes. For my holy communion and conformation I was paid me to wear a dress lol. When I was in my mid-late teens, my mom started giving me ->-bleeped-<- for it, but I didn't care. My mom was a teen when she had me so I lived with my grandparents . My grandfather always treated me like a son. He would get me boy clothes. He even got me a workbench and a tool set when I was a kid. I put it together right next to his. I used to live with my male cusion, always had male friends. I played on boy only sport teams. Even today my friends are guys. I don't look at the male world from the outside. When I'm single the only time I interact with women is at work. I certainly never felt part of the female world.

Quote from: Sharky on January 04, 2012, 11:24:12 PM
I think you're over thinking what I said. For being pre T I think I look pretty masculine already. But I can't wait for T to kick in and do it's stuff. Even though I haven't been working out much I seem stronger then a lot of the people around me. Just got a gym membership too. I was never feminine. If I was to wake up feeling feminine one day it would feel unnatural to me. I like being stronger I wouldn't want to feel weak. I just don't understand why someone would choose to be weak. The other day I was buying dog food and I carried a 60 pound bag of dog food for some lady. She literally could not carry it. She said she would have to have her neighbor take it out of her car and bring it in her house. If I was that weak I would be hitting the gym ASAP.

In my experience anyone feminine, man or woman, aren't interested in being strong. I did weight lifting in high school and the coach had us chart our progress.  He would print us out a chart graph thing so we could easily see our progress. When the feminine girls in my class saw my chart they didn't get it at all. I'm friends with one guy who's really feminine. He is the weakest guy I've ever met. I had a 25 pound barbell by the couch and he couldn't curl it. I know there is nothing stopping a feminine person from being strong, most just don't seem interested. I know not all women are weak. But the average woman is weaker than the average man. I've seen female co workers struggle to lift things that really weren't that heavy. In general if you are a female you are going to be on the weak side.

I don't know any trans people, but for myself I don't think I've changed much at all my whole life. I never had stereotypical female interests. I can't say I was raised in a female way. Yeah when I was a baby I was stuffed in a dress , but when I was 6 I cut off all my hair and started wearing boys clothes. For my holy communion and conformation I was paid me to wear a dress lol. When I was in my mid-late teens, my mom started giving me ->-bleeped-<- for it, but I didn't care. My mom was a teen when she had me so I lived with my grandparents . My grandfather always treated me like a son. He would get me boy clothes. He even got me a workbench and a tool set when I was a kid. I put it together right next to his. I used to live with my male cusion, always had male friends. I played on boy only sport teams. Even today my friends are guys. I don't look at the male world from the outside. When I'm single the only time I interact with women is at work. I certainly never felt part of the female world.

I can come up with just as many instances of strong women though. I come from an Italian, Russian and German background and let me tell you, you don't mess with any of those ladies! My mom is mostly German and a little bit Polish and she was always very strong. She never worked out, she just did physical work. She could lift my dad haha. Everything else you said about how you were treated while growing up I can pretty much relate to. I wore male clothes, had my pick of toys and activities (and usually gravitated towards male activities). My dad totally treated me like a son. He was a Navy man and a mechanic then ran a machine shop for years. I was always helping him fix cars or explore junk yards or learning how stuff worked in the shop. He taught me how to play chess and bought me erector sets and science stuff. And my mom was very supportive as well, teaching me things like how to bake and cook but she also worked hard out in the garden and in the yard landscaping and didn't ask my dad to help her lift anything. But one other thing I learned from my mom is that strength isn't just physical. I watched her deal with her mom's death was a stone facade and she never let people see her get all emotional. She also taught me to stick up for myself and speak up for myself. There's strength in those types of things too. I feel really thankful for how I was able to grow up and the things I learned during that time. Also thankful that my parents didn't plan my early life around my gender.

And yeah, I've seen my share of females who play the girlie girls role but then years later you see them have 3 kids and be a mom and hold down a job at the same time. That takes a hell of a lot of strength. Maybe there's a women who can't carry a 60lb bag of dog food to her house from her car but during the day she works at a nursing home and cares for dying people (one of my friends actually does this - and no she can't lift 60lbs on her own but what she does on a daily basis takes a strength that I know I don't posses).

So maybe you were just thinking superficial, typical, physical strength but in my world the concept has so many different levels and I've seen such a wide range of people capable of it.

Masculine, intimidating and conventionally attractive.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 04, 2012, 02:20:13 PM
I think you could totally attain the young Ozzy once again!

For me, I'm happy looking androgynous. And of course the more people say I look like the guy on my icon, all the better heh I'm not sure I'll ever give up skinny jeans. I mean I have regular jeans too but I love rockin' the skinny ones. I like looking a lot younger than I am (and if my parents are any indication, I'll always look younger than I am!) I love being mistaken for a rock star lol. I love boots and jackets and scarves and just wearing clothes that make me look good. I could give a f**k if they're mens or womens. Whatever ... they make me feel good and look good, so what.

I've also been working for a year now on building up exercising so I can have more of the body I want under the clothes. So far so good on that front and I feel more confident with myself.

So yeah, I think I'm doing alright now

That's a huge compliment, and one that's been desperately needed as of late <3

I do the same thing, I just bought a pair of boots from the womens' section of Amazon.com and I don't give a damn. They just look like regular combat boots, and they were 35$. I buy girls' pants because they fit me better, and I can't stand baggy, floppy clothes.

Also, I thought that was you in the avatar, no lie.

Well, I guess that there's a few ways that I could answer this question,
The briefest and most blunt being that I want people to see me for who I am.
But considering how vague that is, well, I'll say that at this point, I'm a pretty feminine sort of guy, especially in my mannerisms, and my speech...as much as I hate to say it, relearning 20 years of acting like a girl because I've been trying to fit into society really munches balls.
So realistically, I know that chances are likely that I'll always be a pretty feminine guy, soft, artistic, but as always, edgy and off the wall with my fashion sense. I just made myself think of Johnny Depp o.o; Not to mention, nerdy as hell. But...not smart-nerdy, oh no no no, I'm talking nerdy in the sense that I spend my nights saving Midgar from the Tyranny of Shinra. Obligatory gamer-alert.
Though, truth be told, if I had things my way, I wish that I was badass as hell...slightly rugged in a Kevin Sorbo meets Casper Van Dien and has a love-child, only to turn around and have an affair with the illicit offspring with the bastard son of Shemar Moore and Keanu Reeves. Hell yes.
...I'd also kill to have a mug as nice, clean-cut, and heart-warming as Mr. Thomas Gibson, one of my many heroes. Seriously, that man has a thousand faces and I admire all of them.
...And I wanna grow up to be like Mandy Patinkin, cus he rocks of awesome.
Wow, this was a lot less intellectual than I thought it would be.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 05, 2012, 12:33:41 AM
I can come up with just as many instances of strong women though. I come from an Italian, Russian and German background and let me tell you, you don't mess with ....

I'm German, Italian, and Irish. These are definitely not associated with weakness, but I will tell you that Estrogen does hinder someone's ability to be as strong as their male counterpart (as long as that male counterpart doesn't have high estrogen). It isn't stereotypical. I worked at the gym just as much as I do now pre-testosterone and I still build muscle so much faster. Keep in mind that I would not have even gone to the gym if I knew I had a promising amount of physical labor that I could do to keep me strong, but that had never been much of an option for me, especially in the region that I live. Now, I can lift much more in some areas that guys that well over 6 inches taller than me could not and I can't say that's because I was destined to be strong. A year before I started HRT, I was still pretty skinny, yes, but I was weak and lanky. My look at my pictures even a couple of months before HRT and compare them to my two months in point...I think, "My god, I look frail." I don't think he's implying that women can't be physically strong, but that it's a much harder challenge to be one and not have your strength peak extremely quickly. People who do testosterone injections aren't just men with low testosterone, but it's been abused as an anabolic steroid and is known for people trying to enhance their athletic abilities by using it. He does have a point, and if it doesn't fit your ideals, that's fine, but I highly doubt his intent was to denounce any other possibility of a "strong person".
   I was not brought up in a way that enforced stereotypical gender norms on me; I wasn't forced into my gender role, but my parents allowed me to choose most the things that appealed to me. It definitely wasn't free of gender norms once my sister came into the picture, but oh well. I still consider the type of family I grew up in had raised me in a lot more tolerant of some "gender deviation" than some of the other parents I've heard about...even by transguys on here. I've also never seen my mom cry before, but I've seen my dad cry once. I wouldn't say my mom is feminine, but it's not because of this. It's also not because she can lift crazy amounts of weight. I would more than likely say she is a controlled and organized person, but that's just my experience. My dad is a pretty strong guy and he used to be physically until he put on a bunch of weight; he is still very good at asserting himself and performing in a leader position, especially in his job.
    I do agree that there's many different aspects that can make a strong person, but as said earlier, I'm pretty sure that's not what is being talked about here. However, I don't think this makes physical strength superficial, because it often implies physical fitness...which can be essential to leading a healthy life.

Richey Edwards.

http://love-it-loud.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Richey-Edwards.png
http://the-cult-of-richey-edwards.tumblr.com/post/4585712747
http://the-cult-of-richey-edwards.tumblr.com/post/4263356404

But I'll also settle for looking like some lunatic artist with messy hair, stubble, and paint spattered clothes. Halfway there already.

I'd like to look like Daniel Craig: really sophisticated in smart suits, and underneath some huge muscles!

I want people to perceive me as an intelligent, strong man - and I'd like more guys to check me out when I walk down the street! 

Quote from: N.Chaos on January 05, 2012, 02:37:38 AM
That's a huge compliment, and one that's been desperately needed as of late <3

I do the same thing, I just bought a pair of boots from the womens' section of Amazon.com and I don't give a damn. They just look like regular combat boots, and they were 35$. I buy girls' pants because they fit me better, and I can't stand baggy, floppy clothes.

Also, I thought that was you in the avatar, no lie.

Haha thanks. I do have some really similar pics but I hate having actual pics of me as my avatar.

And @JasonRX yeah I get that but it's still not a universal truth. There's plenty of skinny, scrawny dudes who really physically don't have  more muscle mass than female counterparts, in spite of testosterone. I think the fact the males are normally just overall physically larger than females tips the scales more. And of course testosterone leads to easier muscle building. But to me it's just a narrow viewpoint to say, men are stronger, women are weaker, that's that. There's still too much variation to me to say that with absolute authority.

i wana look masculine, yet sensitive, really built but pretty clean cut. basically how i do now just a little more masculine

Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 04, 2012, 10:22:41 PM
thanks. He's kind of my inspiration and he's definitely what I would consider a "tough cupcake" haha.

So your display pic is you and not Gerard Way? All this time I thought it was just a random fan pic...

Quote from: Berger on January 05, 2012, 11:56:32 PM
So your display pic is you and not Gerard Way? All this time I thought it was just a random fan pic...

Nah that is him, but I do have some uncanny similarities.

This is me. Yeah you can't really see my face but you get the idea

I want to be seen as that physically strong, yet romantic (a lil bit soft) guy who's not afraid to embrace some "femininity". Protector and nurturer

I want to be ugly and scruffy and happy and strong and slinky and silly and tough and wonderful. I want to be able to rock tatters or business attire, and I want my body to be good for other people's hands. I want to be very much alive and for that to show.

As long as we're daydreaming.

I'd like to look like the sort of man that can walk down the street and nobody cares, maybe with peoples thinking 'he's goodlooking!' but nothing else. I'd give anything to be a tall man though, anything


That's the simple answer and then I start to think about looking like a rockstar or a male model or whatever :p

Basically I'd just like to look like a man fullstop 

I'd love to me like a mixture of Bruce Willis and Mariusz Pudzianowski and have a somewhat hairy body.
Bruce isn't quite buff enough for me but Pudzian is a little to buff. Neither are hairy enough. I want a lot of body hair but no back hair. Back hair is gross but anywhere else...bring it on.

Hrrn...
Personally, I'd like to get to go out into the sun for more than a few mere minutes a day so my skin isn't so freakishly pale. If you looked at my pictures from when I was a baby to younger, I was obviously related to my Native side. Once I discovered the mythical computer box, however, I stayed inside and my family liked that a little TOO much. D:

Sooo...there's that. I'd also love, love, loooove to bulk up. I know I'm shorter but I can put on muscle quick with the right motivation (I can FEEL the muscles building up in my arms already, just gotta drop my body fat down about 20% or so).  I want to be big, strong and able to have my sleeves done on my arms plus my piercings. Eventually, if my profession allows it? I'd like to give a go at growing dreadlocks (well kept and clean, mind you).
I would like to update my wardrobe further with some AE boxers and jeans, some good boots, and my beloved band tees as well as various blazers for the fancier occasions since I'm often pulled as a guest speaker for transrights in my area at local colleges.

And since I'm going to eventually need to wear some glasses from time to time, I want to find a pair for my face. <_< I also hope to gods my face leans out some in the chin area and maybe my cheeks. I know my jaw is certainly more defined and I have to shave daily for work which sucks. D: I really, really want my chin scruff.

I want to be the shorter guy who can still roll up on his bike and impress the fellow gay boys. I'm kinda glad I'm short. XD However, my only downfall is that my masculine energy seems to scream to females that I'm straight. o_o; And I suppose since I don't follow the 'typical model' of a submissive gay man, I get pegged for something else. So,  I do want to be able to catch some nice boys' eye sometime.

Ahem, ending my rant now.

I start to get pretty cool about my look, I just need to get in shape, not that im fat but my musclemass is pretty lazy after the surgery. I would like to look alittle more badass, I am fine about being femenine but I want to look alittle more boyish. I would hope T would change something in my face so I could have short hair again, however I dont think it would fit me.

Gah... This is a toughy although I do have some sort of visual image in my head.

First thing that comes to my mind, is facial hair. Don't ask why. I'm dead-set on growing sideburns and a goatee.
And I'd really like to have more meat on my bones since I'm skinny as hell without being underweight. I just have very... delicate bodybuild and I don't like it at all.
Tattoos. Gotta have 'em. But I've decided to wait until I've been on T for a while just in case my body decides to go through some major metamorphosis.

But basically, I'd like to look like one of my original characters...
Like this guy.

I'd like to have a soul patch and be built lean and muscular (not mega bulky, more athletic soft of muscle), able to kick ass with a fair knowledge of martial arts if necessity called for it. I would like to be calm in appearance, my face worn a bit with experience, able to show empathy and sincerety, and yet also the ability to let go with a good sense of humor and joy for life. Some of that isn't quite a look but I think does add to the overall sense of mental visualization. All of these things I feel are totally achievable and just express the positive outlook I hope to have/maintain in life.