I do not mean this topic to be in anyway anti USA, I just wanted some info and some discussion.

For those who don't know I live in Australia.

I was reading an article on the GFC and in particular the problems in the USA, where many people have lost jobs, have houses that are worth less than the mortgage value and hence unsellable, preventing people from moving to get another job.

The article also stated that it is coming up to three years since the GFC and that social welfare in the USA cuts out after 3 yrs unemployment, meaning that many people who are unemployed, have commitments will be cut off from employment benefits. So they will lose whatever mortgage  payment they could afford, they are still unemployed, they will not be able to cover health insurance - so what happens?

This sounded so bizarre that I had to find out if it is true.

Is it?

Cindy

What are the USA citizens in this situation, if it is real,  going to do?

right now, welfare is 5 years max and unemployment is determined by the state and other factors.

While this does sound kind of harsh, staying on welfare is more of a curse than a blessing. It's not a very proactive way to get people back on their feet. The program is design to help out people who got in a bind and need temporary assistance.

With that said, the US has awesome programs to get people into colleges and if they don't have a high school diploma, there are programs to get a GED (a test to get a diploma at a high school level) and then college. My mother dropped out of highschool at 15. She then got her GED later and went to college. She now practices medicine and makes a good living.

The programs to get grants, etc, for continuing education are enormous here in the US.

I got laid off in 1999 from Liberty Mutual because of the economy. I went from making 65,000K to 0 a year. I had to do something so I decided to go to graduate school. Even for post bachelor programs the grants and scholarships are everywhere.

For example, my yearly tuition is 12,000 a year. I get a 6,000 scholarship from the school and a 9,000 scholarship with a LGBT foundation who gives out scholarships for transgender people going into the church. I then received a 5,000 grant a year with the government. That gives ne 8,000 in surplus a year for food, gas, books. I have a part time job at Barnes and Noble for entertainment spending.

If I decided to live off of welfare, I may have been tempted to live off of that and some people have spent a very long time on welfare and it becomes a crutch for them

Thanks Annah,

Is there a safety net for people who may not be able to take advantage of these programs?

One of the reasons for posing the question is the aftermath and discussion regarding the 'London Riots' in the UK.   A series of comments in magazines etc suggested that in areas that exploded  that there had been long term; in fact generational, unemployment. That teens and young adults had little concept of what working meant. They wanted belongings that money would buy but no way to legitimately earn that money and no idea of how to access employment.

I was also prompted by a conversation I had with a new staff member who had been working in London for a few years, and just returned back to Oz. He said that you even have to pay to watch the football on pay TV.  It seemed a silly remark. Until I thought about it.

His argument was that the 'common' people (sorry, not meant rudely) could no longer watch footy and sport so they rioted.  They had lost all privilege. The basic right of the mass to watch sport was removed.

I was surprised by such a basic analysis. I then thought about the French Revolution.  Decades of miss treating the mass leads to the mass rising.  It  is common to all popular revolutions.

Cindy

I'm on welfare, ineligible for financial aid because I dropped out of college and took my grants (my daughter was assaulted and the guy was stalking us, so we ran), sometimes get medicaid and sometimes don't (depending on the political climate and budgets year to year), and I'm the only caregiver for a severely mentally ill preteen.

I don't have the free time or childcare available to work even if everything else was okay, and everything else isn't. I did mostly physical work most of my life, but I'm tired. My ankle is shot, my knees are messed up, and I've inhaled a lot of funk and asbestos and paint fumes and god knows what else while doing unskilled labor, and I don't know if I can handle that any more.

I have nightmares and hypervigilance and avoidance issues from PTSD, and I've tried getting on disability for that, but that's hard to do, takes forever, and won't really improve the situation much.

I have no criminal record, a horrible credit score but entirely from regular bills (not shopping or frivolity), I have a driver's license and no tickets or violations, I was an excellent student in school whenever I wasn't facing ridiculous problems unrelated to academics, and I always worked very hard.

It's all a mess. There are a ton of programs, but I've never seen an actual safety net of any kind. Sometimes churches help. I've found, too, that creativity goes a long way. I don't just beg, borrow, and steal, I also build, dumpster-dive, reuse, etc.

I cannot "get back on my feet" until my everyday life gets less intense. I'm intelligent and rational; welfare is not the reason I'm on a webforum at 6am instead of looking for a job.

Also, nobody lives off of welfare, and no one has since the Clinton administration. It maxes out at lower than rent ever is. Welfare is supplementary, unless you mean welfare to include all of tanf, snap, unemployment, ssi, ssd, pensions, etc.

Quote from: Cindy James on December 26, 2011, 02:57:44 AM
Thanks Annah,

Is there a safety net for people who may not be able to take advantage of these programs?

In many states there are. For example, many states has adopted a policy that, in order to continue to receive state aid, they must attend state sponsored job workshops and fairs. I've seen people walk into these facilities and then leaving with a 13.00 an hour salary. It isn't much and some of the jobs are hard working but it's at least a safety net.

Also, at these job centers they have job counselors and career counselors who will sit down with you and explore career alternatives. The vast majority of states still have a 2 year associates degree program in Registered Nursing. It's not uncommon to be making 24 dollar an hour right after graduation....and that's just 2 years of school. Plus community college tuition is about 30 to 90 dollars a credit hour and has state and federal grant assistance. Radiation technicians also makes a lot of money and only requires a 2 year degree.

The educational aspect is wide open in the United States and millions and millions of dollars in scholarships and grants go unspent because people just don't know about them...which there needs to be more awareness of these options in my opinion.

QuoteOne of the reasons for posing the question is the aftermath and discussion regarding the 'London Riots' in the UK.   A series of comments in magazines etc suggested that in areas that exploded  that there had been long term; in fact generational, unemployment. That teens and young adults had little concept of what working meant. They wanted belongings that money would buy but no way to legitimately earn that money and no idea of how to access employment.

That mentality is very strong here as well. Teens and young adults have little concept of what working means. Just on these forums a girl stated she is 23, live with her parents, and is entertaining the idea of getting a job.

When I was 18, my father gave me a hug and told me "you're on your own." It was my responsibility to have preparations lined up after graduation...whether or not I pursue a vocation immediately or go to college. My parents instilled this on me since I was four. When you're 18, you are out of the home.

Today, in America, you have people in the 20s, 30s, and 40s still living with their parents. Honestly, I don't know how they do it. I lived with my mother for 4 months after my divorce between Liberty Mutual and Seminary and I almost jumped out of a window.

QuoteI was also prompted by a conversation I had with a new staff member who had been working in London for a few years, and just returned back to Oz. He said that you even have to pay to watch the football on pay TV.  It seemed a silly remark. Until I thought about it.

His argument was that the 'common' people (sorry, not meant rudely) could no longer watch footy and sport so they rioted.  They had lost all privilege. The basic right of the mass to watch sport was removed.

I was surprised by such a basic analysis. I then thought about the French Revolution.  Decades of miss treating the mass leads to the mass rising.  It  is common to all popular revolutions.

Cindy

I think you're seeing brief glimpses of that today with the Wall Street sit ins.

QuoteIn many states there are. For example, many states has adopted a policy that, in order to continue to receive state aid, they must attend state sponsored job workshops and fairs.

This is federal. Remember the nineties?

QuoteI've seen people walk into these facilities and then leaving with a 13.00 an hour salary. It isn't much and some of the jobs are hard working but it's at least a safety net.

I've never seen this. That only happens with union and government jobs, and people fight tooth and nail for those. They are just as competitive as any other 13 dollar an hour job, even if they do require hard work and don't require skills.

I really don't want to attack you Annah, but where are you getting this stuff? My mom didn't make 13 dollars an hour until she'd been 20 years in the same position. The only time I've ever made that much it was doing very dangerous under the table work.

Welfare in the US isn't a uniform system.  Each state, and sometimes each county within each state, has it's own rules & regs.  Sure, there are some basic federal standards (ie. if you have a federal drug conviction you don't qualify for certain types of aid, though a murder does!).  As far as my understanding of California's system, there is no cut off for welfare (called general assistance here), but there is for unemployment, which can be extended in some instances, depending on how much/long you have paid into the system.

The whole thing's a giant cluster->-bleeped-<-, really.

Annah is also painting a much more overly optimistic picture of the reality of the U.S. welfare system. Look at the sociological literature and you'll find a much more bleak image.

The rules do vary from state to state and they are revised from time to time    Basically, If a person is viably employable they should get a job of some sort and many states do have programs for that

Unfortunately, there are people who abuse the system making it harder for the people who actually need help    There are also folks who have become disabled that would love to go back to work so they can live a decent life again, having to live on welfare is a huge blow to their sense of pride and self worth

Does the system work? To some degree yes, but no it isn't perfect and it definitely is not a desired way to live

The crash of the housing market and high unemployment is putting allot of strain on the welfare system, many people are loosing their homes to bank foreclosures everyday    They are upside down on their mortgage and can't sell for enough to break even and cannot make the payments because they can't find employment

Moving to another area can be a possibility if you have the means to move with

Quote from: valyn_faer on January 01, 2012, 07:28:08 PM
Annah is also painting a much more overly optimistic picture of the reality of the U.S. welfare system. Look at the sociological literature and you'll find a much more bleak image.

I look at the Welfare system as a crutch:

1. You can use the crutch to make good use of the healing time when you were injured so that you can get back on your own two feet


2. You can rely on the crutch too much and never let go; afraid that you'll somehow hurt the leg further.

I would never speak about the welfare system if I never had to go through it. I did. I am giving the OP how I experienced it and what I did to make good use of the system so that I could get back on my own two feet.

It's only bleak for some, but defiantly not for all.  It's highly irregular (which sucks),

Hey minimum wage in SF is now over $10 an hour.  Any half-way decent barrestia can make $15 and up an hour if you count tips.  And union jobs start much, much (lots of much, + benefits) higher.  The lowest paying gig at my union is $18 an hour, and on most days you are going to be there for 8-10 hours, and in total maybe do an hour and a half of real work, so that's why it's low.  The real shows start over $30, plus time and a half over 8, double time for anything over 12 hour, or between midnight and 6am (with meals provided, of course).

Hell you can make $15-20 per hour trimming green bud if you so desire. 

Granted, there is a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time, and knowing the right people (or having them know you), but for the most part it's tied to education (formal and all skills), and work ethic, and personality.  Not having the right education is a huge disadvantage, but so is the notion that 'I want it all right now'.  First of all there is a reason they say in Kentucky that you have to 'run for the roses' - because no horse wins the Derby by strolling around the track (or showing up late). 

I grew up in an upper-middle (not quite rich) household, and my parents had me working when I was 8.  Free newspapers, then on to the real newspapers, (morning, in the Midwest, on my bike, in the snow --- yeah, I know, get off my lawn) by 8th grade I was riding in delivery truck tossing them out as we went past.  Worked as a lifeguard during HS, then into the exciting world of fast food, worked though college too so that I could have the extras, and because it looked good to other people.  And I had the 18 and out, as did my kids.  I was (and did) pay for their college if they so chose, but if they didn't want to, then they had to find something to do.  Hanging out with mom and me was not an option.

And the US has a hard time with welfare because most of us have a hard time with not working.  The best way I've ever heard it put (and from an Irish immigrant) is that in most places in the world people work to live.  Simple.  You have a job because you need the things (rent, food, etc.) and you trade your hours for that stuff.  But the vast majority of people I know (even the hippies) in the US live to work.  What you do is a huge part of what you are here.  It's pretty much the second thing anyone asks.  First your name, then 'what do you do.'  Not where are you from (we don't care, everyone is from somewhere).  Not who your parents are/were.  It's much more like 'what have YOU done for me lately.'  And really, we don't trust people who don't work.



As for the homes, people were warned but there was a huge build-up, and then a crash.  For the most part anyone who bought a home before '97 or so is fine.



His argument was that the 'common' people (sorry, not meant rudely) could no longer watch footy and sport so they rioted.  They had lost all privilege. The basic right of the mass to watch sport was removed.

The Romans understood the highly practical nature of 'bread and circuses', but they were highly practical people.  Without TV and the internet all of those people would be out and about, that would never work.  Better to keep them at home, in a chair, eating fatty foods.  They are busy amusing themselves to death, and I'm content to leave them be.

The question "what do you do?" tears me to pieces. They want to know not just what I do for a living, how I make my way in the world, but also who I am based on that. I'm a scientist, a scholar. That's all I've ever been and all I've ever be. But because that's not paying my rent these days I have to come up with some other answer. I'm a caregiver. I'm a homemaker. I'm an indigent. I'm unemployed. I'm disabled (god I hate that one the most). I'm falling apart, tired, overburdened, trying not to add homelessness to my other problems.

In Portland, barista jobs are pretty highly competitive, and if you have kids you will pay more for childcare than those jobs pay. Union jobs are impossible to get. If you disagree with that, please show me (or people I've loved) how to get them. I'm not looking to work right now (my kid is enough work) but I might could change that for union wages and benefits.

I'm on welfare now, but I've been without it plenty. I've worked lots and lots, and in most states minimum wage is not very high. When I was pregnant it was 5.15. I rarely ever worked on the books anyway, because that's not what construction workers/landscapers/painters/cleaners/etc do. Most unskilled labor does not involve paperwork.

Despite everybody's comments, there have been federal regulations since the Clinton reforms. Those aren't negotiable. Welfare is both time-limited and amount-limited, and there's not a state in the union that doesn't require some kind of work training or equivalent. I'm waivered out by the fact that my daughter's mental illness requires a lot of documentable daily hardships. She hallucinates, she hits, and she's been kicked out of the public school system. If I go to work, the government has to pay incredible amounts of money to deal with her, far more than they'd pay just keeping me from going to work.

In Portland, barista jobs are pretty highly competitive, and if you have kids you will pay more for childcare than those jobs pay. Union jobs are impossible to get. If you disagree with that, please show me (or people I've loved) how to get them. I'm not looking to work right now (my kid is enough work) but I might could change that for union wages and benefits.

And if pouring cups of coffee is competitive, imagine how competitive something that pays a lot more, with good bennies, retirement, vacation and all the rest are.  To start down that road (assuming you don't have close family in the union) you have to have some skills and some experience to start.  They have to want you really.  In order to qualify to join the apprentice program you have to log a bunch of hours working as a 'over-hire' on the jobs we have that we use over-hires on.  Those are the big trade shows and the like, they are not the clubs, theaters or opera or ballet stuff.  That takes decades, if then even.  Then someone in the union has to recommend you to the program.  Then make it through 6 years of training - all of which is to say you have to start pretty early on in life.

Which I only bring up because it's the secret to most people's success.  What looks 'overnight' rarely is.  Success tends to be something that people start on young and work on consistently.  I was working on my union apprentice stuff while I was still an undergraduate.  And by that point I had worked (for money) for bands and clubs for 5 years, and had been doing high-level college theater tech stuff for two.

I started young on biological sciences, really I did. I was a straight A student from kindergarten until middle school. When I dropped out, I'd been to the UK as a student ambassador, I'd been offered scholarships at several universities (though the only decent one was Duke), and I knew exactly what I wanted. I had references, a strong work ethic, a plan.

Then my family fell apart, I dropped out in 7th grade, I got pregnant while homeless and in an abusive relationship (I didn't know what I was doing then), and I generally fell apart and had to focus on survival more than anything else.

I've been back to college twice, and I've earned top honors while there both times, but it always fails because of non-academic issues. My kid was born defective. Her dad was just some guy. I know very little about my own genealogy. She's intelligent and sweet and creative, but her eyes don't converge, she doesn't quite understand reality, and she couldn't even breathe as a baby without surgery. She's something between Ralph Wiggum and Hannibal Lecter. I love her and I do my best, but we don't have any help. Maybe I messed up, but even if we all agree to that it doesn't solve the problem of how do I get by now.

I'm strong and tough and I care about people. I want to work, I want to have talents, and I want to provide for others more than I depend on others. My taking welfare is a survival situation, even if I can't see an end to it.

I have nightmares and stuff. I've had an accordioned pelvis, a shattered ankle, a gajillion head injuries, and I've had all of my ribs broken multiple times. I've broken an arm, my fingers, my toes, my jaw. I've had pneumonia a number of times. I've tried and tried and tried. I've inhaled more asbestos than I want to think about.

If you think welfare is bad and I don't deserve help, I might not argue with you. Dog eat dog and all that. But why in hell is my kid expected to suffer so much? She did nothing wrong. She's just a kid. She was born into this. My failures condemn her, and it turns my stomach to think that she may one day be an adult in the position that I'm in, trying to come up with excuses.

Quote from: Felix on January 09, 2012, 02:00:21 AM
I started young on biological sciences, really I did. I was a straight A student from kindergarten until middle school. When I dropped out, I'd been to the UK as a student ambassador, I'd been offered scholarships at several universities (though the only decent one was Duke), and I knew exactly what I wanted. I had references, a strong work ethic, a plan.

Then my family fell apart, I dropped out in 7th grade, I got pregnant while homeless and in an abusive relationship (I didn't know what I was doing then), and I generally fell apart and had to focus on survival more than anything else.

I've been back to college twice, and I've earned top honors while there both times, but it always fails because of non-academic issues. My kid was born defective. Her dad was just some guy. I know very little about my own genealogy. She's intelligent and sweet and creative, but her eyes don't converge, she doesn't quite understand reality, and she couldn't even breathe as a baby without surgery. She's something between Ralph Wiggum and Hannibal Lecter. I love her and I do my best, but we don't have any help. Maybe I messed up, but even if we all agree to that it doesn't solve the problem of how do I get by now.

I'm strong and tough and I care about people. I want to work, I want to have talents, and I want to provide for others more than I depend on others. My taking welfare is a survival situation, even if I can't see an end to it.

I have nightmares and stuff. I've had an accordioned pelvis, a shattered ankle, a gajillion head injuries, and I've had all of my ribs broken multiple times. I've broken an arm, my fingers, my toes, my jaw. I've had pneumonia a number of times. I've tried and tried and tried. I've inhaled more asbestos than I want to think about.

If you think welfare is bad and I don't deserve help, I might not argue with you. Dog eat dog and all that. But why in hell is my kid expected to suffer so much? She did nothing wrong. She's just a kid. She was born into this. My failures condemn her, and it turns my stomach to think that she may one day be an adult in the position that I'm in, trying to come up with excuses.

This is why I want to see welfare.

Not everyone is holding judge-mental eyes upon you Felix    Some actually understand

Hugs

- Virginia

Thank you V. I was raised by people who worked however much and however many jobs it took, and they refused government help, and they always seemed to get by. I was always taught that taking charity was dishonorable. It took me years to get past the humiliation of taking even food stamps, but I found out the hard way during my pregnancy that living off of semolina is not healthy.

I remember how my parents never took any of us to the doctor unless we were seriously injured. We often didn't have enough to eat, because of their pride. Our power got cut off sometimes, as did our water. They had college degrees and real jobs. I think the world was different then. Now you have to be more skilled, more clever, more creative. I'm not those things. I'm inspired and driven, but I'm tired. I hurt and I'm tired. That eats me alive but it just is what it is.

And really guys, there's not that much difference state to state. A lot of the regulations are federal. It's all pretty uniform. You get max roughly 150 dollars per family member, and all adults get enrolled in a work program. There's an upper limit on how many years you can get it, and you go through means-testing every 3 months. If anybody knows of a state where that's not the case, I'd be surprised.

Quote from: Annah on December 26, 2011, 10:43:31 PM
In many states there are. For example, many states has adopted a policy that, in order to continue to receive state aid, they must attend state sponsored job workshops and fairs. I've seen people walk into these facilities and then leaving with a 13.00 an hour salary. It isn't much and some of the jobs are hard working but it's at least a safety net.

Also, at these job centers they have job counselors and career counselors who will sit down with you and explore career alternatives. The vast majority of states still have a 2 year associates degree program in Registered Nursing. It's not uncommon to be making 24 dollar an hour right after graduation....and that's just 2 years of school. Plus community college tuition is about 30 to 90 dollars a credit hour and has state and federal grant assistance. Radiation technicians also makes a lot of money and only requires a 2 year degree.

The educational aspect is wide open in the United States and millions and millions of dollars in scholarships and grants go unspent because people just don't know about them...which there needs to be more awareness of these options in my opinion.

That mentality is very strong here as well. Teens and young adults have little concept of what working means. Just on these forums a girl stated she is 23, live with her parents, and is entertaining the idea of getting a job.

When I was 18, my father gave me a hug and told me "you're on your own." It was my responsibility to have preparations lined up after graduation...whether or not I pursue a vocation immediately or go to college. My parents instilled this on me since I was four. When you're 18, you are out of the home.

Today, in America, you have people in the 20s, 30s, and 40s still living with their parents. Honestly, I don't know how they do it. I lived with my mother for 4 months after my divorce between Liberty Mutual and Seminary and I almost jumped out of a window.

I think you're seeing brief glimpses of that today with the Wall Street sit ins.

I graduated High School when I was 16, completed a course in basic engineering in collage when I was 17 and from then on, I was working.

I've been at my job for 3 yrs now. I make $20.00 an hour, double that if I work Sunday. This is the first time ever since I came to the US that my family has not been on assistance. before, It's been tough. I have 4 other mouths to feed, clothe and house. And as much as I would love to find something less physical to do, I can't because it pays and the economy is bad. But we hated being on welfare. As Felix pretty much stated, you've got to do what you can to get by.

So I really do sympathize with you Felix. *hugs*