Anyone who did it here and had an excellent result? Which method did you choose?

Quote from: Happy Girl on January 05, 2012, 08:19:05 AM
Anyone who did it here and had an excellent result? Which method did you choose?

No voice surgery is the best. I never seen a successful voice surgery. Google voice surgery before deciding to do it. Knew a girl who had it done and now she sounds like a gay male minniemouse and her voice is forever messed up.

You have better odds having a successful heart, lung, kidney transplant in one operation than a successful voice surgery.

Not sure what axelle means

Quote from: Annah on January 05, 2012, 09:07:38 AM
No voice surgery is the best. I never seen a successful voice surgery. Google voice surgery before deciding to do it. Knew a girl who had it done and now she sounds like a gay male minniemouse and her voice is forever messed up.

You have better odds having a successful heart, lung, kidney transplant in one operation than a successful voice surgery.

Not sure what axelle means

+1

Why spend so much money when you could do it yourself for FREE. It just takes a lot of practice, practice, practice. Look up CandiFLA on YouTube. She gives great tips.

There are all in all, I think, four different types of surgeries nowadays, and the latest of those, are, if the patient heals well and do not get infections, very successfull. It not only races the voice a pitch, as the previous and traditional methods, but literally transforms the voice into a female voice.
However, it only alters the pitch into a female one, it does not, ofcourse, change the way of speaking or the like.

This latest type of surgery originated in Thailand and have so far been very successfull. Although it is still, as said, risky, as it is not only about surgery to race the voicebox but surgery both on the voicebox aswell as inside it, aswell as on the vocal coards, so it is very extensive.
But, so far, the majority of cases have been successfull.

It is also performed by atleast one surgeon in England.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 05, 2012, 10:35:45 AM
There are all in all, I think, four different types of surgeries nowadays, and the latest of those, are, if the patient heals well and do not get infections, very successfull. It not only races the voice a pitch, as the previous and traditional methods, but literally transforms the voice into a female voice.
However, it only alters the pitch into a female one, it does not, ofcourse, change the way of speaking or the like.

This latest type of surgery originated in Thailand and have so far been very successfull. Although it is still, as said, risky, as it is not only about surgery to race the voicebox but surgery both on the voicebox aswell as inside it, aswell as on the vocal coards, so it is very extensive.
But, so far, the majority of cases have been successfull.

It is also performed by atleast one surgeon in England.

im talking about surgeries that happened 6 months ago.

You really do have better odds playing russian roulette.

And IF the surgery was successful you still have to train resonance which is the hardest part of voice training. if you dont youll sound like a high pitch man.

I had a deep voice. I sound totally female now. If I can do it so can anyone else. There's no shortcuts to voice

Quote from: Annah on January 05, 2012, 12:26:45 PM
im talking about surgeries that happened 6 months ago.

You really do have better odds playing russian roulette.

And IF the surgery was successful you still have to train resonance which is the hardest part of voice training. if you dont youll sound like a high pitch man.

I had a deep voice. I sound totally female now. If I can do it so can anyone else. There's no shortcuts to voice

It is impossible to either advice or disadvice on voice surgery, as it is different from person to person and everyone have different goals. For instance, many of those choosing to have voice surgey does so not because they cannot speak in a female voice, but because they want to be able to fully relax 24/7 without sounding like guys when sneezing, snorring, coughing, or speaking on the phone(As someone that fully sounds like a female outside of the phone, may sometimes actually sound like a ->-bleeped-<- on the phone).

Regarding anecdotes, one of my best friends had voice surery done. In my opinion, she didn't need it, but I must sdmit that it was successfull in her case and she only benefited from it, and the most favourable at all was that she no longer had to think about how she was speaking, but could fully relax, so to say.

I know another MTF that had the surgery aswell. However, in her case, I would say that it came out as a bit of a negative result- Not because of the surgery itself, but because she continued to speak in falsetto and nasally even after the surgey, although she did not have to do that any longer, which resulted in her having a so high and light voice that it was just too "small" for her size, or how to put it.

In any case, the risks nowadays, are very few, as the surgeons performing the surgery are nowadays routined in the area, something which they were not so only a decade ago.

Considering that some surgeons themselves advise against the surgery, I'm gonna go ahead and say it's not a risk worth taking.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 05, 2012, 12:46:35 PM
It is impossible to either advice or disadvice on voice surgery, as it is different from person to person and everyone have different goals.

Not entirely accurate.  Opinion is integrated in advice, thus advice can be given in favor or against anything one wishes to offer it in regards to; it's up to the person receiving it to analyze it and/or apply it as they wish.  Furthermore, beyond advice, countless cases involving vocal surgery have led to the conclusion that it is a risky operation in terms of results.  Fact?  For those in which those cases pertain to, yes.  Everyone?  Certainly not.  But honestly, if the majority results conclude that it offered unsuccessful results, and furthermore caused further complication...perhaps it's worth taking a step back and really considering the possible consequences.  But to reiterate my point above, this is merely my advice (opinion), the OP may take it for what it is worth to her.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 05, 2012, 12:46:35 PM
For instance, many of those choosing to have voice surgey does so not because they cannot speak in a female voice, but because they want to be able to fully relax 24/7 without sounding like guys when sneezing, snorring, coughing, or speaking on the phone(As someone that fully sounds like a female outside of the phone, may sometimes actually sound like a ->-bleeped-<- on the phone).

Hmm, ya maybe.  But that sounds more to me like someone needs to practice and use the voice more (consistency without interruption is key).  Trust me, it can be achieved.  And once it is achieved and sustained without interruption, the voice will come naturally and relaxation will surely follow.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 05, 2012, 12:46:35 PM
many of those choosing to have voice surgey does so not because they cannot speak in a female voice, but because they want to be able to fully relax 24/7 without sounding like guys when sneezing, snorring, coughing, or speaking on the phone(As someone that fully sounds like a female outside of the phone, may sometimes actually sound like a ->-bleeped-<- on the phone).

That's inaccurate.

I have been speaking in my feminine voice for so long, my voice automatically goes to that pitch. I do not even think about it anymore. Matter of fact, to talk in the lower range, I have to concentrate just as hard to do that as compared when I first started to talk in my feminine range.

When I sneeze, cough, laugh, yell, or talk on the phone it's feminine. All it takes is practice.

If someone is willing to risk the high risk of voice surgery, they still have to train their resonance. Their resonance is the hardest thing to train. When you nail the fundamentals of feminine speech, things like sneezing, laughing, yelling, coughing is mild training compared to learning resonance. And, all of those issues (sneezing, etc) will become natural.

Every trans resource site out there does not have positive things to say about voice surgery. It isn't like we have a prejudice against it. The risks are out there and very well known. Just google voice surgery risks. The risks are just too high.

Instead of spending 3000 dollars on it and then have to practice speech anyway, it is more sensible to do it for free and save that surgery money for something you cannot change like therapy costs, BA, SRS, HRT etc.

To those people you know who had good results with the surgery, they were lucky and the practice they had to get their voices feminine is still the same techniques those who do not have the surgery go through.

As I said, I had a very deep voice (sang bass) and if I can do it, I sincerely think anyone can do it.

Voice isn't an overnight thing. Nor can you fully learn it in 3 months. I practiced everyday for 7 months until I got my voice to the point where i was happy with it. In my opinion, voice is very important and I would not risk it for shortcuts.

Quote from: Aymzie on January 05, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
Considering that some surgeons themselves advise against the surgery, I'm gonna go ahead and say it's not a risk worth taking.

Some surgeons also disadvice against SRS, too, as there are risks even with that. However, in the end a patient will go ahead with something and do it regardless of if they should or not, if they have already made up their minds.

QuoteNot entirely accurate.  Opinion is integrated in advice, thus advice can be given in favor or against anything one wishes to offer it in regards to; it's up to the person receiving it to analyze it and/or apply it as they wish.  Furthermore, beyond advice, countless cases involving vocal surgery have led to the conclusion that it is a risky operation in terms of results.  Fact?  For those in which those cases pertain to, yes.  Everyone?  Certainly not.  But honestly, if the majority results conclude that it offered unsuccessful results, and furthermore caused further complication...perhaps it's worth taking a step back and really considering the possible consequences.  But to reiterate my point above, this is merely my advice (opinion), the OP may take it for what it is worth to her.

I believe you may have misunderstood me on the "Advice-thing": What I meant with "Advice", was that it is pointless to advice a person to do, or not to do, somethng, as, as I said above, if the person already have made up their mind, he/she will go ahead and do it anyways.
For instance, people that have a severe wish to have their legs cut of, will generally try to find out ways to do it anyways despite people strongly advicing them not to do it.

QuoteHmm, ya maybe.  But that sounds more to me like someone needs to practice and use the voice more (consistency without interruption is key).  Trust me, it can be achieved.  And once it is achieved and sustained without interruption, the voice will come naturally and relaxation will surely follow.

Sure, and I also agree that anyone can basically practice their voice into sounding anyway they want, if enough practice is performed. However, some T-persons simply just do not want to know about their biological sex-charactaristics and want to eliminate them in every way they can, and may feel about the ability to still be able to reach a male voice pitch, in the same way that some TG's wants to have an Orchidectomy not excludingly for physiological reasons, but also for psychological reasons, so that they can feel and know that they truly are irreversably "Emasculated" with no return.
Some TG's that decide to go ahead with voice surgery, does it for much the same reasons; That they want to feel that they are simply unable to reach a deep male pitch, even if they would try to, and are indeed "Emasculated" even in regards of the voice.

In short, it is not about us to tell a person whether they should or should not do something, but it is entirely up to the individual.

Quote from: Annah on January 05, 2012, 08:15:27 PM
That's inaccurate.

I have been speaking in my feminine voice for so long, my voice automatically goes to that pitch. I do not even think about it anymore. Matter of fact, to talk in the lower range, I have to concentrate just as hard to do that as compared when I first started to talk in my feminine range.

When I sneeze, cough, laugh, yell, or talk on the phone it's feminine. All it takes is practice.

If someone is willing to risk the high risk of voice surgery, they still have to train their resonance. Their resonance is the hardest thing to train. When you nail the fundamentals of feminine speech, things like sneezing, laughing, yelling, coughing is mild training compared to learning resonance. And, all of those issues (sneezing, etc) will become natural.

Every trans resource site out there does not have positive things to say about voice surgery. It isn't like we have a prejudice against it. The risks are out there and very well known. Just google voice surgery risks. The risks are just too high.

Instead of spending 3000 dollars on it and then have to practice speech anyway, it is more sensible to do it for free and save that surgery money for something you cannot change like therapy costs, BA, SRS, HRT etc.

To those people you know who had good results with the surgery, they were lucky and the practice they had to get their voices feminine is still the same techniques those who do not have the surgery go through.

As I said, I had a very deep voice (sang bass) and if I can do it, I sincerely think anyone can do it.

Voice isn't an overnight thing. Nor can you fully learn it in 3 months. I practiced everyday for 7 months until I got my voice to the point where i was happy with it. In my opinion, voice is very important and I would not risk it for shortcuts.

Well, I fully understand your concerns and to an extent also agree. However, everyone is different and far from every transperson have or wants to bother about voice practicing but simply just "Wants to get over with it", while yet others are simply "lazy" and want an easy way, as those having the surgery often reasons about it.
All I am saying, is that if someone wants to do something as changing their voice without training, then that is their choise.
I only give them the technical facts and then lets the person in question make their own choise about it.

I simply do not believe in "Scare tactics" instead of providing an actual answer and info, and counter a question by saying; "Oh no, you should NOT do that!" if someone asks; "HOW can I do that?".

Probably a big reason for this standpoint of mine is because I have had those experiences personally, when I have asked for actual info about something I have truly wanted done and that have been deemed controversial by the person/s in question, but just recieved a "NO! Uh-uh! no need for it!" instead of neutral and factual info, which has only resulted in me doing it anyway, simply because that is what I have wanted, regardless of others opinions on it.

Regarding voice training being an absolute must after voice surgery, that, however, is not fully correct, as it is A: Something highly individual from patient to patient. For instance, none of those I know that have had the surgery, have done any type of voice training, simply because they did not need to, as their melody of speach and the resonance were already within a fairly female range, and they only wanted to raise the pitch.
And B: Whether therapy may be needed, also depends very much on the surgical method.
With the latest developed method, for instance, where the full voicebox including the vocal coards are altered, there is no need for speach therapy afterwards, for the simple reason that the voice will be completely remoduled into a female voice(Except for actual speech pattern, ofcourse, but on the other hand, most transsexuals that have not surpressed themselves for a long time in a male role, already have that speech pattern, they just do not know about it).

Many risks, true. Unnessacery, perhaps, but then again, if someone is willing to take those risks, then it is not up to me to stop them, but only to provide the info.

Bishounen

I've no intentions of debating back and forth with you on this matter.  The mere fact remains that the OP is asking for information pertaining to a surgical procedure you will be hard pressed to find anyone supporting.  Thus, yes, the OP could wait for a response in which indicates the responding person had great results and recommends a particular method, but I can almost guarantee you that this thread would remain dormant and the OP's questions more or less unanswered.

Simply providing methods of surgical procedures is only half of the issue; the other half being whether or not they actually work.  While one cannot physically change the mind of another, real-life stories and results from said procedures can certainly influence a person to change their own mind.  Furthermore, since the OP is asking the board in general in reference to this topic, I choose not to provide any information in reference to it in a positive sense as I personally strongly advise against it.  So, more or less, I could have not responded at all, perhaps.  However, I feel it is imperative that a person who requests it, gets all possible information before making such a life changing decision.

Nonetheless, I understand your point of view.  I do not, however, wish to debate this any further.  OP, take my responses as you wish.  It is your decision, and one that will certainly affect your entire life any which way you look at it.  I wash my hands of this discussion.

Quote from: Aymzie on January 06, 2012, 03:10:55 PM
Bishounen

I've no intentions of debating back and forth with you on this matter.  The mere fact remains that the OP is asking for information pertaining to a surgical procedure you will be hard pressed to find anyone supporting.  Thus, yes, the OP could wait for a response in which indicates the responding person had great results and recommends a particular method, but I can almost guarantee you that this thread would remain dormant and the OP's questions more or less unanswered.

Simply providing methods of surgical procedures is only half of the issue; the other half being whether or not they actually work.  While one cannot physically change the mind of another, real-life stories and results from said procedures can certainly influence a person to change their own mind.  Furthermore, since the OP is asking the board in general in reference to this topic, I choose not to provide any information in reference to it in a positive sense as I personally strongly advise against it.  So, more or less, I could have not responded at all, perhaps.  However, I feel it is imperative that a person who requests it, gets all possible information before making such a life changing decision.

Nonetheless, I understand your point of view.  I do not, however, wish to debate this any further.  OP, take my responses as you wish.  It is your decision, and one that will certainly affect your entire life any which way you look at it.  I wash my hands of this discussion.

^This,  I would recommend to the OP to save their money and their voice and do it the right and safe way through hard work and practice.

I want to support Bishounen strongly on that post. Really.

The issue here is definitely not what a person should do. Everyone says it's risky and we know you all think it's not worth it.

Now put that aside and try giving out some info, as requested, if you can.

I'm sounding very dry, but I, too, am interested in voice surgery information, but every time it's asked, there's (almost?) no neutral information given; just a fight between people who say "my friend has had it and it's amazing" and others who say "it's too risky, practice, look at me, I sound fine without surgery", and it frustrates me to a very high point. Personal examples instead of statistics. Recommendations instead of descriptions.

In the topic, voice surgery types have been mentioned. I read it all, and still don't know what the types are, and haven't seen a single link. The author asked what type of surgery was the best, and no answer or even opinion regarding that has been given. Okay, we know you don't think any type of voice surgery is worth it. But that's irrelevant. Even if the maximum success chance is 25%, tell us which has that 25% chance, and which have even lower rates.

I'm going to give an example to illustrate my thoughts. Imagine someone comes and asks what lottery in a given group pays off the most statistically. And you would all reply "no lottery pays off; the very concept of lottery is to make you lose money". It doesn't answer the question, and any average person would have known that. The correct answer would be telling what lottery, if you substract to the costs of tickets the average amount won, costs less.

*Pants* Sorry, this issue had been bothering me for a long while, and this topic was the perfect illustration of the situation.

Now, I have looked for some info myself. I'm really bad at research, but I am proud to have found this interesting article. It describes currently available techniques, the (very limited) results available from studies and recommendations from the author.
http://www.annelawrence.com/voicesurgery.html

According to the article, vocal cord shortening (anterior web creation) is the best surgery for most cases. Risks are breathiness (you "hear air" when the person speaks) and/or voice weakness. Those, however, seem to usually get better with time and/or therapy; most patients have those issues in the short-term, but it gets better, and it looks like it is rarely a major long-term issue. (Just my opinion, but I personally wouldn't mind those side effects all that much if they were mild, since I consider those female attritubutes to an extent).

Thyroid cartilage and vocal cord reduction/feminization laryngoplasty is also mentioned. It narrows the voice box by removing a strip of thyroid cartillage, and also shortens vocal cords by 1/3 (!); literally cutting them off, wheras the previous method fused them. It apparently works very well, but it's a very extreme thing. I guess it's what one might want to look at if they have a very rare, hopelessly low voice.

One thing seems clear, though: no laser surgery looks like it's worth it.

It would seem that all surgeries described adjust little but pitch. However, contrary to what people seem to be saying, the best available techniques seldom create catastrophes if chosen wisely. The biggest risk seems to reside in the mickey mouse effect that may come from too much pitch elevation with a male resonance.

There is also this very interesting, apparently unique, surgery that, according to the surgeon, is not very risky and brings subtle changes to the voice.
http://voice.voicedoctor.net/Surgery/Pitch/Thyrohyoid-elevation

Quote[The surgeon] [has] found it useful in transgender patients who can get a satisfactory voice with their own effort, but find it continuously effortful and would like to be able to relax a bit more during conversation or not feel so fatigued at days end.

My non-expert conclusions: Albeit ultimately unnecessary in most cases, since most people can get to a passing point with training alone, the most recommended voice surgery techniques are not as risky and devilish as often presented. They might be a good way to be able to speak, laugh and shout in a relaxed way, without fear. Even though they always present a risk, if one so desires, they might provide a way to achieve better overall results. They are, however, not a way to skip training and should not replace it. Considering the cost, I would consider the surgery equivalent to light FFS in a patient who already passes: secondary, except those have more significant risks.

I hope this little research helped others as much as it helped me.

You're a very brave soul to be linking Anne Lawrence stuff   

Why? Because she supports augynephilic theories? Well, I guess if "even she, an anti-trans" (<- over-exaggerating, since I'm not especially an  ->-bleeped-<- hater) can say some good about those surgeries, then it can't be all that bad, since if she has a biased opinion, it should theoretically be in the other way, right?

Anyway, I neither am good at nor like research, so anyone having more info would be appreciated, I'd say.

Quote from: A on January 09, 2012, 10:53:49 AM
Why? Because she supports augynephilic theories? Well, I guess if "even she, an anti-trans" (<- over-exaggerating, since I'm not especially an  ->-bleeped-<- hater) can say some good about those surgeries, then it can't be all that bad, since if she has a biased opinion, it should theoretically be in the other way, right?

Anyway, I neither am good at nor like research, so anyone having more info would be appreciated, I'd say.

nope. Not talking about ->-bleeped-<- (even tho I think  ->-bleeped-<- is a barbaric and outdated term).

I'm talking about the series of things she has done.....one being her losing her medical license for unethical treatment of women's genitalia.




Basically, you quoting stuff from her site as sources is like someone quoting stuff from Jimmy Swaggart's site regarding religious advice. If you wish to use sources from websites to support voice surgery, Anne Lawrence is the LAST place you should cite. She was also cited for taking off her dress and panties to a patient to show the patient her vagina....when the patient had no desire to see it.

What. I told you I was bad at research. Too bad she's so untrustworthy; the text looked perfect.

I wonder if there's someone else who did a text describing surgeries like her.

the best sites to use in favor would be the doctors who performed the surgeries regularly. While it may seem kind of "one sided" as they are the ones who are selling the procedure, those doctors do have incredible resources to give.

I don't want you to think I was attacking your posts personally. I just get nervous when people cite Anne Lawrence. It's a shame she keeps her site up and not all of her stuff on her site is bad. She just has a very negative reputation in both the professional medical community and transsexual community and when someone's name is blemished like that, it becomes naturally harder to take her word as Gospel. She hasn't updated her site in over a year tho so who knows?

I found this sitehttp://www.bevhills.com/tg/samples while searching for FFS surgeons. The link takes you to Dr Mayer's voice surgery sample results.
I have no idea whether his surgeries are that successful but if anyone has used his services I would be interested in their experiences.
Cara

No idea which is the "best." And I've never heard of anyone having a successful experience with the procedure. Pretty much every medical professional I've encountered advocates against surgery except in extreme cases. And I personally would expect you to at the very least see a speech therapist before considering it. However, as someone who has not had to do serious voice work, I don't think it's reasonable for me to judge women who prefer to accept the risks of surgery.

Here is relatively up-to-date info on the currently available procedures (there are five):

1. Anterior commissure advancement involves removing a section
of thyroid cartilage and then using splints to wedge the section of
cartilage forward by several millimeters. This pulls the vocal folds
tighter (increases the tension). The surgeons who have used this on
MTFs recommend that it only be used if cricothyroid approximation
is not successful, as they feel it is a difficult surgery to perform.

2. Creation of an anterior vocal web is done by scraping the front
section of the vocal folds. The scar tissue that forms creates a web of
tissue between the folds fusing them together. This shortens the
folds. There is an estimated 33% risk of permanent hoarseness with
this technique. There are also concerns that if, in future, the patient
had a breathing emergency and needed a breathing tube, the
narrowed opening of the windpipe might make it difficult to get the
tube in.

3. Cricothyroid approximation (CTA) mimics the contraction of the
cricothyroid muscle that is used naturally in speech to tense the vocal
folds. The thyroid cartilage is pushed down against the cricoid
cartilage below it, and clamped in place at the front by stitches or
metal plates. Pulling the cartilage down stretches the vocal folds.
In theory, CTA is reversible – but in some cases scar tissue has
permanently fused the cartilages together. Where this fusion has not
happened, the stitches/plates can loosen over time, causing the
cartilage to move back to its original position and the pitch to drop.
Because the vocal folds aren't directly surgically changed by this
technique, it may be possible to do further surgery if the CTA is not
sufficient.
This is the most commonly done type of pitch-elevating surgery.

4. Induction of scarring has been used to raise pitch in non-trans
women who have low voices.
A deep cut is made along the fold with the intention of causing a scar
that irreversibly stiffens the folds which increases the rate of
vibration. Voice quality may be damaged.

5. Reduction of the vocal fold mass may be accomplished by one of
three methods:
a) Steroids injected into the folds cause the folds to atrophy.
b) Carbon dioxide laser can be used to evaporate part of the vocal
fold. Laser Assisted Voice Adjustment (LAVA) is the most
commonly used laser technique in MTFs. The procedure is
irreversible.
c) Thyroid cartilage and vocal fold reduction (also called
"feminization laryngoplasty") involves multiple changes to the
vocal tract. As shown in the picture on the next page, a strip at the
front of the thyroid cartilage is removed. Parts of the vocal folds
are then removed (making them shorter and decreasing their
mass). A loop of stitching through the ends of the cartilage and the
vocal folds pulls the folds tighter and stretches them. The larynx
may also be raised in the neck to shorten the resonance chamber.
The surgeons who perform this technique warn that voice quality
will likely be negatively affected.

from http://vch.eduhealth.ca/PDFs/GA/GA.100.C362.pdf

If you'd like to have a look at some studies on surgical results: http://transhealth.vch.ca/resources/library/tcpdocs/guidelines-speech.pdf
There are a number listed in the reference section.

Best wishes,

Sarah