I haven't known about the androgyne gender very long, and I'm not confident enough to say "I am androgyne".  I think I am, but I'm still figuring it out.

If this is a bit incoherent and rambly, it's because that's how I feel right now.

I've been looking around and seeing a lot of things here I can relate to.  So far I feel like I fit in.

I think I don't feel male or female..  but I'm not really sure I know what that even means.  Gender is a hard thing to wrap my head around.  I'm male bodied, but somehow it feels a little weird when people used male pronouns to refer to me.  But why does it feel that way?  I don't understand it.  I don't know how I'd like female pronouns; nobody's used them on me and truly meant it.

I don't know how significant fashion is (crossdressers prove that fashion doesn't have to match gender), but...  formal men's clothes that accentuate masculine characteristics (like broad shouldered suits) feel like silly costumes on me.  There are a few specific feminine things I really like, such as arm length gloves, but I don't like things like jewelry (on me or on anybody else).  High heeled shoes completely baffle me.  Ideally, I want to look androgynous, but it could be because I just like that look.

Mentally, I seem to have male characteristics (or stereotypes.  Sometimes I'm not sure which is which).  I'm good at math and analytical thinking, and bad at being sensitive and empathetic.  But I really want to be sensitive and empathetic.  I'm afraid I come across as cold and impersonal, but I crave affection and emotional connections with people.  And lots of hugs.  Maybe I'm an androgyne or female mind in a male brain?  I suspect I might be a little ways down the autistic spectrum, and I have some symptoms, but I haven't been diagnosed with anything like that.  According to the internet, it seems there's some disagreement on how relevant that is to gender.

I've hung out with boys and hung out with girls.  Either way, I sort of fit in, almost.  Sometimes.  But not really.

Of course, it'd be easier on all of us if I stopped worrying about this stuff..  but I need a label.  Whether it's male, androgyne, or female, I need a label so I don't feel so alone.  And, even more importantly, I need to understand myself.  But I don't want to jump to conclusions, since gender is such an intangible thing, and I'm such a newbie at thinking about it.

If it comes down to what I truly feel like inside, then maybe I should identify as "somewhat confused".  LOL

first off - welcome!

What you are working through right now is the same stuff that a lot of us have already worked through, so it sounds quite familiar. It takes time to work out what is right for you so don't be in a hurry to get it settled right away. No one can make the decision of what is right for you; only you can decide that. And the decision will likely change/drift a bit over time.

Meanwhile, feel free to wonder around the unicorn forest; there are lots of swings and tree houses and friendly folks here

Welcome! I think that your statement:

QuoteI think I don't feel male or female..  but I'm not really sure I know what that even means.  Gender is a hard thing to wrap my head around.

really kind of captures how I feel about gender. In fact, it's a big part of the reason why I ID as androgyne. Gender makes no sense to me, and for that reason, I can't really label myself male or female. I could get into a long thing about it but I've been mulling on it enough already and not gotten as deep of an analysis as I'd like.

I'd almost say you sound like 'classic' andro - a kind of thoughts and stories and such we hear a lot of. Read through back pages of this forum, I bet you'll find lots of things that chime and sound good. An awful lot of what you have said sounds like stuff lots of us have written, I get the sense you certainly belong in the forest, even if you are not yet sure where.

What you think of this post of 10 things it means to be andro (posted a little tongue in cheek, but I think you'll find some stuff you
with. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,112433.0.html ) I agree, a label is a useful thing, a way to not feel alone... of course there are many more labels you could put on yourself other than gender ones.

Finally, about the autistic spectrum thing, I doubt you are (as I doubt most people who say they are) as autism is something that generally well known but not very rigidly. To be anywhere on the spectrum you have to show clear difficulties in three areas called the 'triad of impairments'.
Here it is...



I would already suggest you know social speech, can understand jokes and sarcasm, have little difficulty with empathy and you shown have the ability to generalise from specific points - so you are already not on the spectrum officially, and that is if you have difficulty with all the other things, which I doubt.

Thank you everybody..

I saw that top 10 list..  a lot of them fit me.  Some are a bit vague, and might possibly describe everybody at least a little bit (like a horoscope).  But overall, I got a sense that I could very well be the sort of person those lists are for.

Quote from: Pica Pica on January 10, 2012, 01:50:03 PMFinally, about the autistic spectrum thing, I doubt you are (as I doubt most people who say they are) as autism is something that generally well known but not very rigidly. To be anywhere on the spectrum you have to show clear difficulties in three areas called the 'triad of impairments'.

Yeah, that's why I'm not diagnosed with anything.  I was imagining the spectrum as going from severe autism all the way to.. well, not all the way to perfectly average...  come to think of it, the way I imagined the spectrum is very ill-defined.  Maybe I should stop saying I'm on it 

Anyway.. this isn't the first time I've come to a big realization about myself.  Although I'm not ready to say I'm certain about being androgyne yet, I've never come this far and found out I was wrong.

Quote from: BlueSloth on January 11, 2012, 01:56:00 AM
I was imagining the spectrum as going from severe autism all the way to.. well, not all the way to perfectly average... 

Not quite, you need those difficulties to be anywhere on the spectrum, and if you don't 'qualify' that's a good thing which is something netizens seem to forget.

Quote from: Pica Pica on January 11, 2012, 02:00:01 AM
Not quite, you need those difficulties to be anywhere on the spectrum, and if you don't 'qualify' that's a good thing which is something netizens seem to forget.

Well, diagnosis is usually good.. it doesn't really change anything, it just means a doctor identified something.  But I am glad that, as far as I know, I don't qualify for any more than I already have.

Yeah, I stretched out the definition of "autistic spectrum"..  some of my traits have been described as autistic like, but none of it's bad enough to be called a disorder, and that's what I was trying to say.

This is going well.  I don't want to be on a forum where I can say anything and everybody mindlessly accepts it

Quote from: BlueSloth on January 10, 2012, 05:47:36 AM
I haven't known about the androgyne gender very long, and I'm not confident enough to say "I am androgyne".  I think I am, but I'm still figuring it out.

If this is a bit incoherent and rambly, it's because that's how I feel right now.

I've been looking around and seeing a lot of things here I can relate to.  So far I feel like I fit in.

I think I don't feel male or female..  but I'm not really sure I know what that even means.  Gender is a hard thing to wrap my head around.  I'm male bodied, but somehow it feels a little weird when people used male pronouns to refer to me.  But why does it feel that way?  I don't understand it.  I don't know how I'd like female pronouns; nobody's used them on me and truly meant it.

I don't know how significant fashion is (crossdressers prove that fashion doesn't have to match gender), but...  formal men's clothes that accentuate masculine characteristics (like broad shouldered suits) feel like silly costumes on me.  There are a few specific feminine things I really like, such as arm length gloves, but I don't like things like jewelry (on me or on anybody else).  High heeled shoes completely baffle me.  Ideally, I want to look androgynous, but it could be because I just like that look.

Mentally, I seem to have male characteristics (or stereotypes.  Sometimes I'm not sure which is which).  I'm good at math and analytical thinking, and bad at being sensitive and empathetic.  But I really want to be sensitive and empathetic.  I'm afraid I come across as cold and impersonal, but I crave affection and emotional connections with people.  And lots of hugs.  Maybe I'm an androgyne or female mind in a male brain?  I suspect I might be a little ways down the autistic spectrum, and I have some symptoms, but I haven't been diagnosed with anything like that.  According to the internet, it seems there's some disagreement on how relevant that is to gender.

I've hung out with boys and hung out with girls.  Either way, I sort of fit in, almost.  Sometimes.  But not really.

Of course, it'd be easier on all of us if I stopped worrying about this stuff..  but I need a label.  Whether it's male, androgyne, or female, I need a label so I don't feel so alone.  And, even more importantly, I need to understand myself.  But I don't want to jump to conclusions, since gender is such an intangible thing, and I'm such a newbie at thinking about it.

If it comes down to what I truly feel like inside, then maybe I should identify as "somewhat confused".  LOL

Hey BlueSloth.  You could be describing me with most of that intro   I was looking for a label too, for myself rather than for others, I felt it would make life simpler and less confusing even though it would by no means sum up who I am.  A kind of psychological shorthand really; instead of having to mentally balance and mix together loads of different concepts such as masculine/feminine, male/female, and how I feel/dress/speak/interact with others; I could just think to myself "I am just XXXX" and not have to tie my self in knots trying to work myself out.  I went with "androgyne" for a while, then "non-binary", now I just use "queer" as it covers my sexuality as well as gender.  Things can still get confusing and frustrating sometimes but it does seem clearer to me.

You are really describing my thoughts on gender.  I am male bodied and I hate suits.  It has been a year now since I've worn my last suit and I am happy this way. I hate too clothing that accentuate masculinity. I have never tried long gloves but I would really like to try them on.

It is really difficult to be placed in cubby holes as a friend of mine says.  I never identified as androgyn and that is why it took me a while to find this community and be comfortable with a label.  I am comfortable being non-binary.  It is a good description for me because I don't like being defined by the common male/female identification.  I also feel that androgyn is an extension of that.  So non-binary is everything that is not male/female.

Hopefully you will find what you are looking for.

Sarah7's introduction has inspired me..

Like Sarah7, I can't find the thing in my head that's supposed to tell me what gender I am.

I'm still sort of a confused newbie.  I don't know if I really want to identify as androgyne or just give up on gender completely.  Or not change at all and stay with male.  I don't feel like I'm changing though; the only reason I ever went with male in the first place is because I didn't think about it and didn't know all the possibilities.  It's more like I'm figuring out my gender for the first time.

I've been hesitating because I can't get any satisfying validation of anything..  it's not like I'm going to say "I'm androgyne" and something's going to go ding and say "congratulations, you've guessed correctly!  You've won a lifetime supply of awkward pronouns!".

I talked to a gay friend about it, and he basically wants me to be male and says I shouldn't think about this stuff too much.  I shouldn't let that bother me, but it makes me wonder if all this is worth it.

Another friend told me I can be myself, whatever that is, and it doesn't matter... it really took me by surprise how good it felt to be told that.  I know a lot of people feel that way about me, but to be explicitly told that by somebody I care about was amazing.

I'm sleepy and forgetting what point I was trying to make here...

I don't think gender means much to me.  I don't think I want to call myself a man, I don't think I want to call myself a woman.. I guess I'll either go with androgyne or give up and try not to worry about it.  Either way, I know I want to try to look more androgynous, and I know I'm really sick and tired of society's pigeonholes.

Quote from: BlueSloth on January 23, 2012, 05:12:38 AM
Like Sarah7, I can't find the thing in my head that's supposed to tell me what gender I am.

That's pretty much how I feel. I seem to have been born without the gender module in my brain. There's always an element of "does not compute".

Hi Julian,
         Your tickerfactory short-timer calendar has been fascinating to me. I started transitioning m2f several years ago and had sort of a melt down and subsequent change of heart. After a number of years on HRT and no testes I wound up with breasts which are kept cinched under light compression tops so as not to make too much of a statement. I have considered having them removed, but it seems to me that the scarring left from having the gland mass augured out would offset the benefits. I saw a couple of results that left big clefts and no nipple. It totally creeps me out! (shudder)

I inspired someone with my gender apathy? I find this vaguely terrifying. I feel I should post warning signs on my profile now: "crazy girl, please ignore."

Actually, in reading your first post, "somewhat confused" sounds pretty much like the best possible way of identifying.

"Life - real life - is a big mess. Thank goodness. And every answer spawns another question; and every question blossoms with a hundred different answers; and if you're lucky you'll always feel somewhat confused."

- Constance, Goodnight Desdemona (Good Morning Juliet) by Ann-Marie MacDonald

When I first heard of the androgyne gender, I thought "yay!  A label that might fit me!" but now I'm realizing that I don't know how to justify calling myself any gender.  I want a label though.. I'll probably be most comfortable with "genderqueer".

In my main intro post I said

Quote from: BlueSloth on January 08, 2012, 05:22:22 AMI don't want to look androgynous to confuse people, I want to look androgynous because that's actually how I feel inside

Maybe I do want to confuse people, because confusing is actually how I feel inside.

Someday I hope somebody will look at me, get confused, and say "are you a man or a woman?"... to which I'll reply "no." 

Oh, and Sarah7, you inspired me because you wrote pretty much exactly what I'm feeling.

Quote from: Shantel on January 23, 2012, 04:53:16 PM
Hi Julian,
         Your tickerfactory short-timer calendar has been fascinating to me. I started transitioning m2f several years ago and had sort of a melt down and subsequent change of heart. After a number of years on HRT and no testes I wound up with breasts which are kept cinched under light compression tops so as not to make too much of a statement. I have considered having them removed, but it seems to me that the scarring left from having the gland mass augured out would offset the benefits. I saw a couple of results that left big clefts and no nipple. It totally creeps me out! (shudder)

If you want to be rid of them, and they're small enough to be flattened under light compression, you might well qualify for a procedure that hardly leaves any scarring, and has little to no chance of losing the nipple. I can give you more info when I'm on a computer, if you like.

Bluesloth, its common for people to want to mess around and try to confuse people but imo people generally don't care and if they do its for like 30 to 60 seconds at most.  I'm sure your circumstances are different then mine (and everyones ) but being confused puts a full stop on the life experience at least thats my experience.   So concentrate on yourself and getting unconfused.

Quote from: Julian on January 25, 2012, 08:20:28 AM
If you want to be rid of them, and they're small enough to be flattened under light compression, you might well qualify for a procedure that hardly leaves any scarring, and has little to no chance of losing the nipple. I can give you more info when I'm on a computer, if you like.

Yes please feel free to email me whenever!

Quote from: espo on January 25, 2012, 08:47:09 AM
Bluesloth, its common for people to want to mess around and try to confuse people but imo people generally don't care and if they do its for like 30 to 60 seconds at most.  I'm sure your circumstances are different then mine (and everyones ) but being confused puts a full stop on the life experience at least thats my experience.   So concentrate on yourself and getting unconfused.

This isn't bad; I've been through worse confusion.  I do want to get unconfused though.

And it's good to hear that people generally don't care.  It might be fun to confuse a few people, but usually I just don't want people to care.  Don't people usually care about gender though?  Or are so used to the binary that it'll bug them if I'm not on it?

Quote from: BlueSloth on January 28, 2012, 12:37:38 AM
This isn't bad; I've been through worse confusion.  I do want to get unconfused though.

And it's good to hear that people generally don't care.  It might be fun to confuse a few people, but usually I just don't want people to care.  Don't people usually care about gender though?  Or are so used to the binary that it'll bug them if I'm not on it?

If you mean family when you say people then I'll say no matter how you present you will always be the gender you were born no matter how accepting or conforming in pronouns etc they are. Friends can be the same depending on how long you've known them and if you mean people as in the guy at the bank or grocery store then IF they are unsure which gender you are they will pick one for you if they need to gender you. Physically, people are never as androgynous as to actually be without one of the two genders.  In photos ya, but in r/l no.  Even if you have boobs and a beard, its which do you look like MORE. Are you a man with boobs or a woman with a beard. People automatically decide for you if you don't present one way or the other for them. 
I look feminine so I go with that, female pronouns female name but I also have some male attributes and most of the time I feel male and believe I'm male  but not always. I can also feel girly and can act girly and look girly to the point where I'm actually a girl with my male attribute.  I dont know if any of that makes sense, I guess I'm saying physically people will decide if you are male or female, rarely are they confused, so I cant get caught up in the androgynous part of being an androgyne. I don't find where I'm at fun, others do so maybe you should ignore me and talk with them about this. I find between peoples confusion (if they real are confused which I doubt they are) and my confussion I pick my confusion to work on or worry about. So if you don't want people to care, don't worry cuz they don't.


Edit: I want to add that if people do care its because they see you as crossdressing your gender, not so much a guy wearing girls clothes although that can cause the bigots and sob's to react but if they see (in their mind) a guy pretending to be a girl or vise versa then ya, people can care about that but they still peg you as one of the two genders. Not like they are going Oh I'm so confused cuz I don't know if that person is male or female, how am I to react to them omg what do I do, this is so confusing.

I think I'm becoming unconfused.

I've gone about a month without a definite gender label, wondering if anything was going to come up that would convince me I was right all along and I really am a male after all, or convince me that it doesn't matter anyway since gender isn't a big deal.

I've also hesitated because so many people say that they know their gender because they just feel it, and they're just sure about it somehow, and I can't honestly say that.  But it's been said (a while ago, on a different kind of forum) that soul searching isn't about meditating and getting all introspective.. the way to really know yourself is to do things and interact with the world and see how you react to it, how you think, what you want, and stuff like that.

I'm reaching a conclusion.  I'm not going to list out every reason for it, but the reasons are accumulating.

The idea of not caring about labels is growing in me, and might possibly mature someday and become a full fledged way of thinking, but it's not there yet.  And I'm done hesitating...  so... it's label time!

I'm an androgyne.

I've promised myself I won't let myself feel trapped in the label like I did when I identified as male.  Yay freedom!

I'm done being confused, but this is just the beginning, isn't it.  So I'm androgyne.  Now what?  I don't like presenting as fully male, but how far am I willing to go to do something about that?  What pronouns do I want, and how far will I go to try to get people to use them?  I'm looking forward to finally being myself, but still so very timid in a society that's not going to cooperate...  *sigh*  I think I'll worry about that later and for now just try to enjoy having been unconfused.

Thank you everybody who posted here in my thread   *hugs everybody to share the unconfused happiness*

I was wondering if I was going to figure this out by the time I was able to fill out my profile..  this is my 15th post, isn't it?  Hehe.