"It doesn't matter what I want, it doesn't matter what I need." ~ Alison Krauss

I was reading about sex & gender and virilization.
I read that girls have the ability to move their elbows inwards slightly, whereas men cannot. It doesn't seem like anything on face value, but it made me break down and cry. I wasn't sure why at the time, but in hindsight I believe I can see why.

I'm not a girl.

Oestrogen can make me girly, but it can't make me a girl. No matter what I do, I'm not a girl. I'm a boy, I was born a boy, I've always been a boy.

I don't care if people consider me a girl, I don't care if I don't dress like a girl. Girls aren't girls because people think they are, nor are girls girls because they dress like them. Girls are girls - they just are. And I'm not.

I've lost faith in this. I can't really see the point of this anymore.
Sorry if I offended anyone in this post; I just sort've wanted to let that out.

Quote from: Hidari on March 29, 2007, 05:38:13 AM
"It doesn't matter what I want, it doesn't matter what I need." ~ Alison Krauss

It doesn't seem like anything on face value, but it made me break down and cry. I wasn't sure why at the time, but in hindsight I believe I can see why.

I'm not a girl.

Oestrogen can make me girly, but it can't make me a girl. No matter what I do, I'm not a girl. I'm a boy, I was born a boy, I've always been a boy.

I don't care if people consider me a girl, I don't care if I don't dress like a girl. Girls aren't girls because people think they are, nor are girls girls because they dress like them. Girls are girls - they just are. And I'm not.

I've lost faith in this. I can't really see the point of this anymore.
Sorry if I offended anyone in this post; I just sort've wanted to let that out.

Please dont cry, you can be happy, you just have to be paitient. Not everything is going to happen at one. please look deep down on the surface you may have been born a boy but you are the woman the little girl inside. If you want the two to be the same you can.

Girls are girls because we say they are, and you can join them.

Dont do anything rash, lookafter yourself, please take care. Your worrying me.
call back
LUV LUCY

Hidari, take pride in who you are, for you are not defined by what some really twisted and deranged adults call you.
Stop crying and look in the mirror; tell yourself that you are a great, powerful being, and that you\'re on this planet for a purpose. You are worthy of love, you are worthy of being respected, and, most importantly, you are a beautiful, magnificent woman. Another thing, practice, practice, practice and you will be amazed at what you can accomplish.

Quote from: Hidari on March 29, 2007, 05:38:13 AM
"It doesn't matter what I want, it doesn't matter what I need." ~ Alison Krauss

I was reading about sex & gender and virilization.
I read that girls have the ability to move their elbows inwards slightly, whereas men cannot. It doesn't seem like anything on face value, but it made me break down and cry. I wasn't sure why at the time, but in hindsight I believe I can see why.

I'm not a girl.

Oestrogen can make me girly, but it can't make me a girl. No matter what I do, I'm not a girl. I'm a boy, I was born a boy, I've always been a boy.

I don't care if people consider me a girl, I don't care if I don't dress like a girl. Girls aren't girls because people think they are, nor are girls girls because they dress like them. Girls are girls - they just are. And I'm not.

I've lost faith in this. I can't really see the point of this anymore.
Sorry if I offended anyone in this post; I just sort've wanted to let that out.

I would like to politely disagree.

The largest difference between me, born boy, and a natal girl, born girl of course, is my physical characteristics and my socialization. Yes, this are big things, REALLY BIG. But it does not change that I AM a girl. Yes, I was born in a boy suit, raised as boy, socialized boy, but that has NOT changed that I AM NOT A BOY. ^*shrug* No, I am not blind that my body will never (presumably) be equivalent to that if I had been born a girl in the first place but it STILL does not change the fact that I am a girl.

^*nudge*

It is what is in your heart that counts Hidari, not the body you find yourself in. You are what your heart tells you that you are. Listen to yourself, and then do what it takes to make it happen. It is worth being this half thing for the piece of mind. Half of transition is mental you know, discarding the lies the false presentation... the things that make our skin crawl in the back of our minds.


Don't get me wrong, I know EXACTLY what you mean. But at the end of the day it does not matter. I waited until it dawned on me that despite appearances, upbringing, LIKES, dislikes, plans, social roles and everything else. Despite it all, I was a girl, and in denying that and avoiding it and running from it I was doing myself harm.


^*hug*


Transition is a rousy(lousy--I have always liked how Scooby says it) thing, but it gets to a point where NOT actively doing something about this condition is WORSE. I bid you do something before it gets to that point.  It is an imperfect solution for an imperfect world, but it is, at least, some solution.

Be safe, strong and know that I believe in you Hidari. We all do really, you are among friends here. Friends who know exactly what it is like, both before, during and after. Listen to your sisters here, learn from us.

Blessed Be.
^*curtsey*

Hidari, you're young and young people often seem to have a strong need to see things in absolutes. But the real world doesn't necessarily work that way. In our society (human society in general) there's a tenancy to ignore (or dislike) diversity-- especially where gender is concerned. And it's true that most everyone you meet is genetically and psychologically one gender or the other. But the hidden secret our society hides is that "girl" and "boy" are by no means absolute extremes. While most (but not all) of us have either XX or XY chromosomes and various secondary characteristics such as the elbow thing you described, there are many other ways of being a girl or a boy. Some very normal-looking born women actually have "male" chromosomes and internally are essentially "male" (AIS condition).
It is hard to come to terms with who and what you are. It's true that, at this time, science cannot entirely transform someone born male into a fully female-functioning  Rebecca Romijn. We all must deal with the hard facts of who and what we are. You will never be able to do that elbow thing (not really an obstacle if you asked me!). You will never be able to have a baby in your belly. But there are many born girls who can't do those things either. They get by fine, anyway. In your situation, you're going to have occasional realizations like this. Life is not fair. It's life. It doesn't mean you can never be a girl. It just means you can never be a girl who can do that or that. Get in touch with what's important to you in life. You can probably achieve it without doing the elbow thing. There are many kinds of girls. You may have to find the kind that you are.

What has to be understood is that the definitions for boy and girl are more about behaviors and values rather than about biological capacities.  That's why I notice in many modern medical journals and text books the word gender is downplayed as an analogous word for sex, because in reality there are about six recognized sexes that are possible via our chromosomes [not our genital configuration]. So, saying X is a Boy or a Girl is more about general appearence [primary and secondary sex features] and behavior, where behavior can vary the responses and values of the person in question.

-- Bridget

Females are born, women are made.

Nobody can do anything about the situation into which they are born.

But what you choose to do with what you have been given should not be taken lightly.

QuoteI'm a boy, I was born a boy, I've always been a boy.

Perhaps you choose to label your birth as male, but if you are a boy, it is because that is how you are socialized.  I know plenty of women, born female, that identify as being a boy (or boi).

It's not how you are born -- it's how you choose to socialize yourself that matters.

Some people will accept you, and others will not. Just like everyone else in the world.

So, I would suggest to stop dwelling on what is past, and concentrate on the presen and your future -- because you cannot make any changes over what has happened, but you can choose to make a different outcome for yourself in the future.

I've said it before, will say it again:

You are WHO you are; not WHAT you are.

Being born a boy does not make you less of a girl, if a girl is who you are. Even though a boy is WHAT you are; if a girl is WHO you are, then a girl you are.
And there's medical help to suit the what-bit better with the who-bit. Why deny yourself that, if the option is present?

Quote from: Hidari on March 29, 2007, 05:38:13 AM
"It doesn't matter what I want, it doesn't matter what I need." ~ Alison Krauss

I was reading about sex & gender and virilization.
I read that girls have the ability to move their elbows inwards slightly, whereas men cannot. It doesn't seem like anything on face value, but it made me break down and cry.

That's a generalization. It really has to do with the body shape, especially the upper body from the shoulders to the hips. Many women have rectangular or inverted triangular body shapes (see the Land's End bathing suit body shapes) and their arms hang and move either straight down or slightly outward. It's simply family genetics and your body. It's not an indication of anything else, not being female or feminine. Just go to any large mall and watch women walk.

--Susan--

Quote from: Hidari on March 29, 2007, 05:38:13 AM

Sorry if I offended anyone in this post; I just sort've wanted to let that out.

We're all big girls and boys here Hidari and we understand what a struggle life can be and we won't take offense easily. So if you want to let it out, you go right ahead and let it out. If you're like me there's been way to much holding it in.

After you've let it out - step back and see where you are. I bet you'll be in a different place and have a different view.

Debbie

Quote from: Anemonie on March 29, 2007, 04:02:49 PM
Today I was unhappy because I learned that women tend to have middle and ring fingers that are the same length, and my middle finger is longer than my ring finger. I thought of all the ways I could perhaps hide my lack of finger equity, perhaps by putting band-aids on both of my ring fingers and lying to anyone who asks that some freak accident occurred that affected only that area symmetrically.

That can't be right -- I've never seen anyone with middle and ring fingers of the same length, and I have looked at a fair number of people's hands, of both sexes.  (Although on my left hand my index finger is very close to being as long as my middle finger, so it might be possible, but it's certainly not common.)

Maybe you meant index and ring fingers of the same length, in which case this is true on average, but there is still a lot of variation.

Regardless, this, and how you can bend your elbows, and all that, has nothing to do with anything important.  You are who you are.

This is just my take on this. I was born a girl in a boys body. That major problem will be corrected this year. It is what is in your mind. If you truly want something bad enough, you can make it happen. I am 32 and have been working on my situation since I was 16 or so. It dosen't happen over night.
I was telling someone here the other day I wish some aliens would come down and change me into a girl over night for an experiment. She said that would be ok if they knew where the vagina went. I wont say who, but if she wants to take credit for this hilarious coment chime in.
Be happy with your self and become what your heart tells you. It has not been an easy road. It does in fact get easier as you feel more comfortable with yourself.

Deb

// I was having an extremely bad day. Let me reply now I'm a little less hysterical...

I was born a girl in a boy's body. Or, girly, in a boy's body.
I think that might be how I have to remain.

Whenever I try to look like a girl, my self-esteem plummets when I look in the mirror. I don't look like a girl, I only feel like a girl inside, I hate the sound of my own voice. All of my senses are telling me I'm a boy. Maybe they're right - maybe I'm wrong.

I might just have to settle with being "a girly boy", as my friend put it.


And sorry for worrying you, Lucy.

QuoteMaybe you meant index and ring fingers of the same length, in which case this is true on average, but there is still a lot of variation.

There was a study done many years ago that showed a direct correlation between the length of the index finger, and the middle finger on the secondary hand [left if right-handed, and right if left-handed].

It showed that exposure to testosterone in the womb tended to make the index finger shorter than the middle finger in most all cases. Which also means that lots of lesbians, and many str8 women [like my sister], have the same condition. It does not denote female or male sexuality.
It simply notes that that individual had more testosterone applied to the embryo in the womb.

Conversely, there are men [I worked with one] that have index fingers and middle fingers almost the same length, because their level of exposure to "T" in the womb was low.

What does that tell us?  That tests like this show trends, but do nothing to differentiate male v. female sexuality.  Find something else to fret over, because this is a no brainer.

Quote from: Thundra on March 30, 2007, 06:43:57 PM

QuoteMaybe you meant index and ring fingers of the same length, in which case this is true on average, but there is still a lot of variation.

There was a study done many years ago that showed a direct correlation between the length of the index finger, and the middle finger on the secondary hand [left if right-handed, and right if left-handed].

It showed that exposure to testosterone in the womb tended to make the index finger shorter than the middle finger in most all cases. Which also means that lots of lesbians, and many str8 women [like my sister], have the same condition. It does not denote female or male sexuality.
It simply notes that that individual had more testosterone applied to the embryo in the womb.

Conversely, there are men [I worked with one] that have index fingers and middle fingers almost the same length, because their level of exposure to "T" in the womb was low.

What does that tell us?  That tests like this show trends, but do nothing to differentiate male v. female sexuality.  Find something else to fret over, because this is a no brainer.

That's quite interesting, because I'm right-handed, and my left index finger, as I said, is very close in length to my left middle finger.

Quote from: Hidari on March 30, 2007, 05:04:06 PM

// I was having an extremely bad day. Let me reply now I'm a little less hysterical...

I was born a girl in a boy's body. Or, girly, in a boy's body.
I think that might be how I have to remain.

Whenever I try to look like a girl, my self-esteem plummets when I look in the mirror. I don't look like a girl, I only feel like a girl inside, I hate the sound of my own voice. All of my senses are telling me I'm a boy. Maybe they're right - maybe I'm wrong.

I might just have to settle with being "a girly boy", as my friend put it.


And sorry for worrying you, Lucy.

Never settle for less.  You'll be living in a state of constant regret and turmoil.

This life is about reaching your full potential.  You cannot do that without the mind and body aligning.  Remember that your physical appearance means little; you can enhance and alter everything with effort and science.  You can be satisfied, and if you are satisfied with yourself, then others (namely those that matter) will follow suit.

Stop defeating yourself.  Harmonize yourself internally, then harmonize yourself externally.  Once you get moving, it really isn't that hard.

The important thing is to get moving, though.  There will be ups and downs along the way (which is true no matter what direction you're heading in life), but the unique thing about walking along the path of transition is that the outcome, when successfully achieved, is always positive.

So start trying.

~ Blair

Quote from: Hidari on March 29, 2007, 05:38:13 AM

I read that girls have the ability to move their elbows inwards slightly, whereas men cannot

.....I'm not a girl.

Hello Hidari..

I was born male, and have a male voice.  I started hrt at 50-something, started growing my hair long 9 months ago.  I cannot go anywhere...without being called maam, or ladies, when in the company of another woman, even without any makeup, in jeans, and tee shirt, and even if I speak first.  It always startles my family, as to them, I look kind of the same.  I look kind of the same to them, because they have seen me every day, and the changes from my hrt are not  as noticible to them.  I looked in the mirror every day, and the changes seemed to be minute. Then, suddenly, after 2 years, it was unmistakable.  I look like a woman.

Now...about those elbows....I can turn mine inward a little, very easily.  Now you have me wondering why I have this ability??  Obviously, some males can, other can't.  The opposite must also be true.  Some natal females can't either.

NOW.....about those middle fingers....I also have seem my fair share of those in my 50-some years, from men, woemen, AND children, and believe me, they all looked the same

Seriously.....get on with your transition, let it do its thing, and it'll all work out.  Don't expect too much, too soon.

Luv

Bev