Hi ladies! I'm just popping in to bring up the same subject in your section of the forum as I did in the guys' section, to get as many different opinions on this topic as I can.
   
I've seen this floating around more and more lately, and the idea has really gotten me thinking.

If, as I personally believe (and I think many others do), being born transgender is a physical defect in which the brain does not match the body, then could we (should we) not be included in the intersex category? While our circumstances are very different, I don't think that should separate us entirely from a group of people who's identity problems lie in physical characteristics impairing their ability to present or be categorised as one gender or the other.

On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one). I also feel like explaining it to people this way might eliminate a lot of that ill-informed 'just because you think you're a man/woman, doesn't mean you are' backlash we seem to get from the public.

I don't know though, so I thought I'd present this for discussion. What do you girls think? Could transgender people be considered to have a specific kind of intersex condition? And do you feel more comfortable thinking of yourself as transgender, or as intersex?

I have a couple of friends who are IS, one of whom is also TG, and they consider there is a difference.  One is external the other internal, so the issues faced are similar but not the same.

Karen.

What he seems to be saying is that it IS an external problem because our bodies are what's wrong with us, not our minds

Quote from: justmeinoz on January 16, 2012, 02:33:31 AM
I have a couple of friends who are IS, one of whom is also TG, and they consider there is a difference.  One is external the other internal, so the issues faced are similar but not the same.

Karen.

Very true, however the biggest sex organ in the human body is the brain. So in a way I think that it could be considered that. We're just luckier in that we don't get mutilated when we are born. We get to choose later on in life.

Quote from: EmilyElizabeth on January 16, 2012, 02:35:29 AM
What he seems to be saying is that it IS an external problem because our bodies are what's wrong with us, not our minds

This is exactly what I was getting at, yes.

Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 02:28:19 AM
On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one).

((Don't take this as me being offended, I'm totally not ))

I don't see my being more feminine or liking feminine aesthetics in myself as a "defect". Sure, I'm not like "most guys" (and perhaps have more in common with women)... but I see nothing wrong with diversity.

Really, I see being trans as rather beautiful...

Quote from: Rabbit on January 16, 2012, 03:55:28 AM
I don't see my being more feminine or liking feminine aesthetics in myself as a "defect".

I do apologise, I understand in hindsight that the word 'defect' can be taken in a bad way, when perhaps some people don't see their own condition or circumstances to be a bad thing. For me personally though, I do have a physical defect, or perhaps the word 'abnormality' would have served me better in this sentence? I would much rather my condition be viewed as such, than to have people believe I am mentally handicapped, or that my mind is otherwise affected by a disorder.

Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 04:02:01 AM
For me personally though, I do have a physical defect, or perhaps the word 'abnormality' would have served me better in this sentence?

As my character sculpting instructor likes to say "people are freaks".

His job is to study people and model characters. He spends a great deal of time looking at people and the extremely wide variations (ever look at peoples ears? there is a huge range of different types! In something so simple!). Noses, jaws, hips, waists, chests....even basic proportions!

A lot of times (in comercial media) you need to learn to "standardize" things to make them "look normal" (even when working from a photo reference and an actual person!).

That is a lot of what you are shown. A standardized watered down version of "a person" (male or female).

This isn't just in visual presentation... but also in how personalities are written and presented.

In reality though "people are freaks". There is such a huge diversity in every aspect of our bodies (and minds). This isn't a defect.. this isn't "wrong"... it isn't even actually abnormal (you just don't see it, because many feel like they need to hide their differences... that they need to conform and put on an act to fit in with "the guys" or whatever).

Don't be so harsh on yourself There is nothing wrong with you... we aren't meant to be all the same... diversity is a GOOD thing. The only time something becomes a "defect' is when it starts to negatively impact our condition... and, well, being trans doesn't negatively impact a person (it is societies judgement of it which does that).

Quote from: Rabbit on January 16, 2012, 04:24:37 AM
Don't be so harsh on yourself There is nothing wrong with you... we aren't meant to be all the same... diversity is a GOOD thing. The only time something becomes a "defect' is when it starts to negatively impact our condition... and, well, being trans doesn't negatively impact a person (it is societies judgement of it which does that).

I do not mean any offence at all by this, but telling me I do not have a defect or abnormality will not help me in any way. If I didn't believe within my own world view that I was different, there would be no need to change anything about myself in order to further improve my life, and my ability to survive in this world. Believing there is nothing wrong with a transgender person is the kind of thought process that stops us from accessing much-needed medical treatment.

As to your very final point, I would have to disagree completely. Looking down at myself and seeing a chest and nothing between my legs, where I should have no chest and a penis, is extremely harming to me, and most definitely impacts me negatively. This is not a social construct or other's judgement of my body, it is my own, and it is painful.

I do of course understand the thought behind your post though, and I appreciate the sentiment.

People who are intersex have a very broad and diverse range of experience of themselves with regard to gender identity, regardless of their physical attributes.

I think that until there's clear evidence that trangender issues all stem from physical causes (e.g. neurological, biochemical, genetic, etc.) it makes a lot more sense to keep the definitions separate, since the things that intersex people have in common and the things transgender people have in common don't overlap often enough, significantly enough, compared to the differences between intersex and transgender people's experience.

Just thought I'd drop this by, since Kreuzfidel posted it in the guys' section.

http://www.changelingaspects.com/Articles/Harry_Benjamins_Syndrome.htm

http://www.shb-info.org/hbs.html

As there are apparently two threads on this, I guess I might just aswell also re-post my answer in both of them.

This is what I wrote in the other duplicate of the Thread;

Funny, I was thinking about this very topic just yesterday.

My opinion, is that Born GID should indeed be included as a Intersex Condition, Not the least, because many HBS-transsexuals do also find themselves to actually have various Intersex Conditions and not seldomly the Klinefelders Condition.

However... As not all transitioners are so called HBS-transsexuals or born transsexuals, then this label could only be applied for a certain type of Transgendersim or Transsexualism, as far from anyone that transitions does it because the person already have a crossgendered Brain, but because they rather are attracted to the idea of living like the desired Sex than already being that Sex, so to speak.

So, as I said, this label could hence not be used as an Umbrella Label for ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism, but only for a certain type of Trans, as there would still be transitioners that transitions only because they wish to possess a body of the Opposite Sex, rather than because they are born transsexuals.

2 different things. Little cross-over in the classical definition of each.

Quote from: JennX on January 16, 2012, 10:35:39 AM
2 different things. Little cross-over in the classical definition of each.

But the classical definition of each is not what's being questioned here; what's being put forward is that the 'true' trans condition is a physical (and therefore intersex), condition.

Intersex: one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs.

If a trans person has a physically male brain, and a physically female body, then that person has both male and female organs. Even by the classical definition, that makes them intersex.

Hi,
I am both trans and IS, and i do consider typical cases of transgender identity and transition (I.e., identifying as the gender opposite one's assigned at birth gender,hormone replacement therapy, and social transition) to usually be a form of intersex.  I had to qualify that statement twice though with words like "typically" and "usually".  Sex, like gender, is a spectrum, and I think that although trans people are often not visibly intersex prior to taking hormones, that there is evidence that the nuerological differences typical in trans people are a form of sexual variation (intersex). Also, there are cases where trans people have other, undiagnosed, invisible intersex characteristics.  Taking hormones absolutely makes one visibly, and undeniably intersex.

Where this gets tricky though is that there are a plethora of complicated emotional, political, cultural, and sexual factors that influence variant gender expression, transgender identity, and the decision to transition.  It should also be noted that homosexuality is also frequently associated with sexual variations in neurological make up, as well as variant gender expression without transgender identity, gender transition or visible intersex characteristics.  Can this also be considered a form of intersex? I think, by the lose definition of intersex that one uses to include trans people, it can (its interesting to think about where butch lesbian trans women and femme gay trans men fit on this spectrum, to say the least).

Also, despite some overlap in issues that are common to persons who were either born visibly intersex or spontaneously developed intersex characteristics during puberty and transgender identity (such as hormones, surgery, passing, legal issues, and the fact that gender transition is relatively more common amongst the intersexed), it is useful to have the concepts of trans and intersex separate in order to discuss what is different about them (involuntary intersex surgeries, involuntary hormone therapy, the unique issues that affect cis intersex persons like passing as one's assigned at birth gender, etc).

I'm not offended by trans people who were not born visibly intersex and only became visibly intersex via hormones and/or surgery (or not at all) identifying as intersex, but it is still important to me to be able to make a distinction between typical intersex and typical trans experiences.  Personally, my intersex identity is more important to me than my trans identity in describing my experiences with sex and gender (and I simply cannot relate to the standard trans narrative as I have socially transitioned without hormones and" pass" better than I did prior to transition), although the unique language of the transgender experience also describes my own experiences in ways a purely intersex narrative cannot.

I mostly agree with you, Bane. However, a difference remains. Intersex people's differences are visible, physical and proved, whilst ours are more subjective and, at the very least, harder to investigate. So while I think that way of thinking is at least partly correct, It's still not okay to call us intersexed in medical terms.

If you're right, then the problem is most probably in the brain - I mean, physically, I don't think there are actual differences visible. However, the brain is a complex structure we still don't understand very well. They still have trouble diagnosing, treating and, above all, explaining mental illnesses that are undeniable and obvious, so imagine our case, where some scientists still contest the very existence of our situation.

Plus, the brain, despite representing our personalities, our very selves (unless some very breaking discoveries are made), is only a fraction of the body, so it's kind of hard to admit EVERYTHING but the brain is wrong. I think ->-bleeped-<- is unique in its status that is hard to define between mental illness and something else. Besides, it would be very new to science if you're right. If it's not a mental illness, what is it? It's not self-immune, it's not neurological... It's more like an incompatibility between the brain and the rest. How would they call that? How would they prove it? It's a complicated situation.

To summarise, I think you're right, but right now, I still think it's sort of fair to treat our situation as a mental illness, since we can't explain it - except with mere unproven hypotheses - otherwise just yet.

Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 10:47:04 AM
But the classical definition of each is not what's being questioned here; what's being put forward is that the 'true' trans condition is a physical (and therefore intersex), condition.

Intersex: one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs.

If a trans person has a physically male brain, and a physically female body, then that person has both male and female organs. Even by the classical definition, that makes them intersex.

Transgendered people do not have reproductive organs (and these are the type of organs they are referring to in the definition above, not your brain, heart, lungs, et al) of undefined sex or a combination of both sexes (ie hermaphrodite). This would classify an individual as inter-sexed. See the difference? We might have the mental characteristics, but lack the anatomy. Now, an inter-sexed person could also be transgendered, but no the other way around.

There are also a plethora of chromosomal disorders that could also be argued one way or the other as well. 

Quote from: JennX on January 17, 2012, 12:03:31 AM
Transgendered people do not have reproductive organs (and these are the type of organs they are referring to in the definition above, not your brain, heart, lungs, et al) of undefined sex or a combination of both sexes (ie hermaphrodite).

The definition does not say reproductive organs; it says sexual organs.

Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 10:47:04 AM
Intersex: one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs.

The brain is a sexual organ, so it still meets the criteria.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/374

as I stated in the other thread:

I think it would be more worthwhile to turn the stigma around and show the world that transgenders are not freaks rather than hiding behind another condition, which in no way shape or form, classifies your condition.

If you don't have sexual reproduction ambiguity or "abnormal" sex chromosome pattern then you aren't intersex.

I don't know...call it tough love or whatever, but I find it in poor taste to try to get society to accept you as intersex when you are not.

I am intersex. Transsexualism is a freakin walk in the park compared to the physical struggles I went through growing up (and being transsexual is hard too...i changed genders...i know the hell but its miniscule compared to the physical conditions I suffered from being intersex). I have lost count the many times I was rushed to the hospital because my hormones went out of whack every other year, developing co morbids that were extremely painful, having breasts in junior high school (not the man boobs....real breasts), not dating in high school for fear of sexual discovery.

When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.

Also, if we use the brain as an argument proving that transsexuals are intersex since the brain is a sex organ then 100% of every human being on this planet is intersex as everyone has various degrees of femininity and masculinity inherited within their brain. That's not how the diagnosis of intersex works. It's the sexual ambiguity of the sexual reproduction organs (downstairs...not in your head) and or the abnormal sexual traits of the chromosomes. If you wish to change how intersex people are diagnosed then you have to convinced the medical community that you are right....and I even disagree with you.

I think it would be better worthwhile to focus on transsexual traits and turning around the negative social stigmas of the word transsexual than trying to be something you are not.

 That sounds a bit elitist to me. Whether one's struggles are simple or difficult should not dictate the validity of a condition, especially one that is so broad.

By technical definition, transsexuality appears to be an intersex condition, however I would concede that by the popular definition, it is not. So, by all means, change your views depending on who you're addressing... perhaps there is more than one solution to this problem of classification.