I've seen this floating around more and more lately, and the idea has really gotten me thinking.

If, as I personally believe (and I think many others do), being born transgender is a physical defect in which the brain does not match the body, then could we (should we) not be included in the intersex category? While our circumstances are very different, I don't think that should separate us entirely from a group of people who's identity problems lie in physical characteristics impairing their ability to present or be categorised as one gender or the other.

On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one). I also feel like explaining it to people this way might eliminate a lot of that ill-informed 'just because you think you're a man/woman, doesn't mean you are' backlash we seem to get from the public.

I don't know though, so I thought I'd present this for discussion. What do you guys think? Could transgender people be considered to have a specific kind of intersex condition? And do you feel more comfortable thinking of yourself as transgender, or as intersex?

P.S. Will post the same in the ladies' section of the forum to see what they think as well.

Oh this is tricky for me to answer.  I would very much like for the broader medical community (and society in general) to recognise transsexualism as a physiological/medical condition vs. a "mental health issue".  In ways I feel that it is an intersex condition, but feel upset when I hear some intersex people saying we have no grounds being lumped into "their category" as it "trivialises" their conditions.  So I really don't know exactly what I think :/

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 03:04:51 AM
In ways I feel that it is an intersex condition, but feel upset when I hear some intersex people saying we have no grounds being lumped into "their category" as it "trivialises" their conditions.  So I really don't know exactly what I think :/

I understand what you're saying, but at the same time I really don't understand it. How does a transgender person's condition 'trivialise' an intersex person's condition, when the intersex category itself encompasses so many unique physical characteristics? An intersex person can seem perfectly cisgendered, but have an X or a Y chromosome where there shouldn't be one, cliteromegaly, or a non-functional womb, etc etc.

I'm not saying we are the same as every intersex person, or that we face the same trials or circumstances that they do, but I do believe that our individual conditions may all be a part of the same root family.

In my opinion, yeah, transsexualism is just another intersex condition.

I belive being transexual are about gender-identity.
yeah maybe you could be born with a male brain and a female body so you would be kinda intersex, but if you still identify female then it wouldnt make much of a change.
also I guess it would be a bit strange to start jugding brain and genders, they dont have enough knowlegde on those points yet to know exactly.

I don't personally hold the view that transfolk somehow "trivialise" so-called "true" intersex people's conditions, Bane.  It's just something that I have heard some intersex people say.  I don't know how they justify this.

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 05:53:52 AM
I don't personally hold the view that transfolk somehow "trivialise" so-called "true" intersex people's conditions, Bane.  It's just something that I have heard some intersex people say.  I don't know how they justify this.

Hahaha, yeah I know mate!

What do you think of this?  http://shb-info.org/hbs.html

http://www.changelingaspects.com/Articles/Harry_Benjamins_Syndrome.htm

Amazing! I just can't understand why this information, or view of our condition, is so hard to find! I've been looking up trans stuff on the net for years, looking for anything I could find about us, and I've never seen this before.

Thanks so much Kreuzfidel!

Cool beans! I just came across that the other day - your post reminded me.  I quite like the way it sounds and it makes sense.  I wish it would get more attention, too.  Maybe one day...

Yeah that's how I view it, basically. I see it as a physical deformity and nothing more. Definitely not an identity; I am not my condition. I am not a "transman", "FTM" or "a transsexual" any more than someone with cancer is "a carcinoma".

Look up "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." There's a group of people who have that same idea, but don't identify as transgender or as transsexuals. I don't think of it as an intersex condition because I feel that would be appropriating intersex, and they face a variety of different obstacles.

Quote from: Nygeel on January 16, 2012, 08:51:33 AM
Look up "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." There's a group of people who have that same idea, but don't identify as transgender or as transsexuals.

Kreuzfidel linked to the Harry Benjamin Syndrome site earlier. I have to say the more I read about it the more I believe it to be correct, not that I didn't already think being transsexual was an intersex condition.

We're just now starting to see proof that shows that this could be a condition caused by genes and/or hormonal imbalances before birth:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030111005.htm
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/sex-change-trigger-gene-found/story-fn6bfm6w-1225964752675
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14424-transsexuality-gene-boosts-male-hormones.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news1_head_dn14424
Which would definitely make this a biological condition, not a psychiatric one, and legally that would make us intersex.

Quote from: Nygeel on January 16, 2012, 08:51:33 AM
I don't think of it as an intersex condition because I feel that would be appropriating intersex, and they face a variety of different obstacles.

I really don't understand this though. I am aware that we are facing very different circumstances to intersex people, and I could understand an intersex person being angry if we tried to equate our experience with theirs, but that's not what I'm puting forward at all. And if anything, the meshing of the T and the I might help our two minorities to get things done.

Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 02:24:44 AM
I've seen this floating around more and more lately, and the idea has really gotten me thinking.

If, as I personally believe (and I think many others do), being born transgender is a physical defect in which the brain does not match the body, then could we (should we) not be included in the intersex category? While our circumstances are very different, I don't think that should separate us entirely from a group of people who's identity problems lie in physical characteristics impairing their ability to present or be categorised as one gender or the other.

On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one). I also feel like explaining it to people this way might eliminate a lot of that ill-informed 'just because you think you're a man/woman, doesn't mean you are' backlash we seem to get from the public.

I don't know though, so I thought I'd present this for discussion. What do you guys think? Could transgender people be considered to have a specific kind of intersex condition? And do you feel more comfortable thinking of yourself as transgender, or as intersex?

P.S. Will post the same in the ladies' section of the forum to see what they think as well.

Funny, I was thinking about this very topic just yesterday.

My opinion, is that Born GID should indeed be included as a Intersex Condition, Not the least, because many HBS-transsexuals do also find themselves to actually have various Intersex Conditions and not seldomly the Klinefelders Condition.

However... As not all transitioners are so called HBS-transsexuals or born transsexuals, then this label could only be applied for a certain type of Transgendersim or Transsexualism, as far from anyone that transitions does it because the person already have a crossgendered Brain, but because they rather are attracted to the idea of living like the desired Sex than already being that Sex, so to speak.

So, as I said, this label could hence not be used as an Umbrella Label for ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism, but only for a certain type of Trans, as there would still be transitioners that transitions only because they wish to possess a body of the Opposite Sex, rather than because they are born transsexuals.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 16, 2012, 09:31:48 AM
So, as I said, this label could hence not be used as an Umbrella Label for ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism, but only for a certain type of Trans, as there would still be transitioners that transitions only because they wish to possess a body of the Opposite Sex, rather than because they are born transsexuals.

Absolutely! The HBS site talks about how HBS sufferers are only those who would have been described by the old terminology as 'True Transsexuals'. Of course there are still people in between the two genders, or who wish to change or present themselves as a different gender for other reasons, and these people would not be considered intersex.

My mind has been blown by this, and I feel awesome! I know it's silly to say, but by looking at all of this information I feel justified. I do not want to have to identify as 'transsexual', I am just a man who was born a little skewed.

Personally, I would not group the two together as intertwined terms. I understand your line of thinking and your logic behind it, but intersex is a condition where one genetically shares both attributes of male and female gender or an ambiguous form of both genders.

The verdict is still out whether or not transgender is a pure physical issue.

Intersex, it is a clear cut answer. You'll know after a few medical examinations. Plus, I have a feeling that many transgender people wants to be labeled intersex because the word and condition of "intersex" isn't that much of a taboo when compared to "transsexual."

I am intersex and yes, in my opinion the differences are huge between intersex and transgender. Plus, many intersex people could be offended if you grouped them with transsexuals.

Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
Absolutely! The HBS site talks about how HBS sufferers are only those who would have been described by the old terminology as 'True Transsexuals'. Of course there are still people in between the two genders, or who wish to change or present themselves as a different gender for other reasons, and these people would not be considered intersex.

My mind has been blown by this, and I feel awesome! I know it's silly to say, but by looking at all of this information I feel justified. I do not want to have to identify as 'transsexual', I am just a man who was born a little skewed.

Lol You do not sound silly at all.  In fact, I know exactly what you mean and the fact that there are more and more evidence coming out that point to that, atleast one type of GID, is withborn, it provides harder and harder blows in the face of those that want to make it out as being a mere choise, or even worse, a mental disease.

Speaking of it, and if you have not already seen it, I think the following article would interest you even further: http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0

Quote from: Annah on January 16, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
but intersex is a condition where one genetically shares both attributes of male and female gender or an ambiguous form of both genders.

Wouldn't having a male brain and a female body be one who genetically shares both attributes of male and female? See this as one person having a distinctly male organ, and other distinctly female organs; the fact that the organ in question is the brain is irrelevant.

Quote from: Annah on January 16, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
Plus, I have a feeling that many transgender people wants to be labeled intersex because the word and condition of "intersex" isn't that much of a taboo when compared to "transsexual."

This is absolutely true. I know I want to distance myself from that stigma. But does my wish in any way invalidate the circumstances of my condition?

Quote from: Annah on January 16, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
I am intersex and yes, in my opinion the differences are huge between intersex and transgender. Plus, many intersex people could be offended if you grouped them with transsexuals.

The differences between melanoma and prostate cancer are huge, but that doesn't mean they aren't both cancer. I really don't mean to offend by any of this, and I respect your opinion on this matter, but would you mind explaining why our being grouped together might make intersex people offended?

I guess I would be annoyed and angry if someone bunched me in with sociopaths, but I propose the integration of trans people into the intersex community, not the other way around. Doing so would eliminate the unfortunate stigma we carry... so I'm afraid I don't quite understand the reluctance or anger.

My gender identity is right for my brain. I don't believe gender is just a social thing it's how your brain is wired. It's my brain and body that don't match, yeah that's a physical problem, but it's not my junk and plumbing so I don't think it counts as intersex. The only way I would see it as a mental problem is if your brain is female, or something non binary, and your gender identity is something else.

I agree with Annah.  I don't identify as intersex because (as far as I know) I'm genetically XX, my genitals were not ambiguous at birth, and my gonads are ovaries.  It is only after transitioning that my genitals are "ambiguous" due to testosterone; my genetics and gonads remain the same (although those may be atrophied).  Being intersex is typically seen as a congenital condition (condition existing at birth).  While I do believe that being transgender is medical condition, I think it would be incorrect to call it intersex for those reasons.