This is actually a dumb question because even with makeup on, I still don't look like a woman, but without it, I look dreadful.  It's like even when I'm not trying to pass as a female I really need the makeup. 

Is it after the FFS?  They say that one day you can look so feminine that you can jump out of the shower, not have any makeup on and look like a woman when the UPS guy comes to deliver his package.

 It's different from person to person. Sometimes hormones are enough... some can pass as women without makeup or hormones, even. For others, FFS is indeed necessary.

I think I pass as female without makeup, but I know that I didn't at one time... it took me seven or so months to reach that point. However, while passing without makeup is a wonderful milestone and great self-confidence booster, it doesn't really negate the necessity of makeup in daily life. It always helps.

It's hard to know whether you can get to that point before you've been on hormones for a while. And even then... a person's face, or even their physical appearance as a whole is only a part of the picture. The other large part of it is a person's mannerisms, how they carry themselves, how they walk, and most importantly the quality of their voice. It's usually assumed that the mannerisms are correct by default, but that's not always the case.

I don't think the mannerism-and-voice aspect's importance can be overestimated.

No Make up, No Surgeries, Nothing and I pass. Genetics are on my side for now, I just really need to start hrt soon.

It's totally dependent on where you start. I'm "genetically gifted" or whatever and stopped passing as a guy in boy presentation after 5 months on HRT. Luck, that's all it is. I passed accidentally about 10-20% of the time before doing anything.

Of course I still went ahead and did FFS, but that didn't really have anything to do with passing.

Also:

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on January 16, 2012, 05:39:49 PM
I don't think the mannerism-and-voice aspect's importance can be overestimated.

This so much. A big part of the reason things went so fast for me was 'cause of my voice and how I move. I looked basically ungenderable at 5 months, but then they'd hear me talk and they'd see "female" instantly regardless of how I was presenting.