There are so many different intersex conditions though, some of which are hormonal issues where the person was born with completely "normal" genitalia and the condition was not caught at birth. I still view transsexualism as an intersex condition because there is evidence that hormones in the womb cause the mismatched gender and sex.

Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 09:53:11 AM
Wouldn't having a male brain and a female body be one who genetically shares both attributes of male and female? See this as one person having a distinctly male organ, and other distinctly female organs; the fact that the organ in question is the brain is irrelevant.

This is absolutely true. I know I want to distance myself from that stigma. But does my wish in any way invalidate the circumstances of my condition?

The differences between melanoma and prostate cancer are huge, but that doesn't mean they aren't both cancer. I really don't mean to offend by any of this, and I respect your opinion on this matter, but would you mind explaining why our being grouped together might make intersex people offended?

I guess I would be annoyed and angry if someone bunched me in with sociopaths, but I propose the integration of trans people into the intersex community, not the other way around. Doing so would eliminate the unfortunate stigma we carry... so I'm afraid I don't quite understand the reluctance or anger.

I really understand how you feel but the brain is a very complex issue. Right now, the medical criteria terms for intersex is a variation of cross gender genetics and other sexual reproduction ambiguity.

If you wish to know if you are intersex you can request an examination.

Also, if you desire to make transsexuals recognized as intersex I would encourage you to contact medical experts in this arena and start a dialogue with them

I think the big push back from the intersex community comes from the overall feeling that the LGBT community likes to co-opt other things.

Also, the visible (or testable) component to intersex does put it in a different category and since most psychologists say transsexualism is still mental condition that doesn't work well. However, I do believe that there are definite situations where a fetus is exposed to high levels of hormones or other things and changes in the brain (and possibly the body) can occur. It happened in my case.

There's also a lot more intersex variation that most sources let on. It's in the hundreds really but most people just think it's chromosomal, a small set of conditions like CAH or true hermaphrodite. But there's tons of different variations on genitalia that can be classed as intersex too where you don't necessarily have major internal things wrong.

So really, I think it's the psychologists and doctors that are preventing transsexualism to be classed as intersex but my own personal belief is that in some cases it certainly could.

Hmmm... you bring up an interesting point. I agree that it would be easier if people saw us as having a real physical condition, however, physical conditions are generally limited to bodies, and not deformities of the brain.

I do, however, think that we should not be classified as a mental health problem, because I don't think that's the case. Normally those types of conditions can be treated or cured.

Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?

I would call it proof that there are physical aspects of our bodies that are causing our trans conditions. I doubt they will ever find one specific thing that can explain it, because the likelihood of someone being trans would rely on a lot of different affecting factors. This could be just one of the many things that affect our gender identity.

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?

Since there are plenty of "normal" females with this condition that kind of doesn't let that theory hold much water.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 17, 2012, 12:16:47 AM
Since there are plenty of "normal" females with this condition that kind of doesn't let that theory hold much water.

Since the percentage of 'normal' females who have the condition is between 5%-10%, I'd say it holds a lot of water.

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?

The simple fact that 1 in 10 identifying genetic females also suffer from polycistic ovarian syndrome (my ex included) is not evidence that transsexuals are intersex.

Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 12:21:05 AM
Since the percentage of 'normal' females who have the condition is between 5%-10%, I'd say it holds a lot of water.

it's actually 10% but it still does not define that person as intersex.

The definition of intersex is "The abnormal condition of being intermediate between male and female." Polycistic ovarian syndrome isn't a sign that you are a biological/physical cross between male and female.

Raven Kaldera, who is an intersex liaison for a non profit group (and also transgender) wrote an excellant editorial on the subject: http://www.ravenkaldera.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html

I'm still convinced that transsexuals want to use the term "intersex" because that word is more palatable and doesn't carry the weight of social stigmas that "transsexual" does.

Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:26:08 AM
The simple fact that 1 in 10 identifying genetic females also suffer from polycistic ovarian syndrome (my ex included) is not evidence that transsexuals are intersex.

I didn't say it was. What it is evidence of is an endocrine disorder that is five times more common in trans guys than in women.

Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:29:51 AM
I'm still convinced that transsexuals want to use the term "intersex" because that word is more palatable and doesn't carry the weight of social stigmas that "transsexual" does.

Absolutely, I want to get as far away from that stigma as I can. But how does that wish in any way affect my actual condition?

Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 12:34:12 AM
Absolutely, I want to get as far away from that stigma as I can. But how does that wish in any way affect my actual condition?

Because I think it would be more worthwhile to turn the stigma around and show the world that transgenders are not freaks rather than hiding behind another condition, which in no way shape or form, classifies your condition.

If you don't have sexual reproduction ambiguity or "abnormal" sex chromosome pattern then you aren't intersex.

I don't know...call it tough love or whatever, but I find it in poor taste to try to get society to accept you as intersex when you are not.

I am intersex. Transsexualism is a freakin walk in the park compared to the physical struggles I went through growing up (and being transsexual is hard too...i changed genders...i know the hell but its miniscule compared to the physical conditions I suffered from being intersex). I have lost count the many times I was rushed to the hospital because my hormones went out of whack every other year, developing co morbids that were extremely painful, having breasts in junior high school (not the man boobs....real breasts), not dating in high school for fear of sexual discovery.

When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.

Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:46:00 AM
When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.

I understand exactly what you're saying, and I respect that you've had a very hard time of it, and there's no way that I could understand all of the things you've had to go through. But by this same logic would you deny that intersex people who go years without discovering their condition, because the type they have barely impacts their life, are any less a part of the intersex family than you, simply because they have a different form of the condition?

I thought that some intersex conditions, namely CAH, had nothing to do with the sex chromosomes and did not always result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility.

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 17, 2012, 01:53:34 AM
I thought that some intersex conditions, namely CAH, had nothing to do with the sex chromosomes and did not always result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility.

You're right, and this is something I've been trying to point out in both threads for a while now, and that everyone keeps ignoring...

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 17, 2012, 01:53:34 AM
I thought that some intersex conditions, namely CAH, had nothing to do with the sex chromosomes and did not always result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility.

But it's still a congenital, chromosomal abnormality.  It has to do with hormones, but it's due to a genetic mutation.  Who said that all intersex conditions relate to sex chromosomes and result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility?

According to the "Clinical Guidelines for the Management of Disorder of Sex Development in Childhood" (from the Intersex Society of North America):

QuoteDisorders of sex development (DSD) are defined as conditions involving the following elements.
    * congenital development of ambiguous genitalia (e.g., 46,XX virilizing congenital adrenal hyperplasia; clitoromegaly; micropenis)
    * congenital disjunction of internal and external sex anatomy (e.g., Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome; 5-alpha reductase deficiency)
    * incomplete development of sex anatomy (e.g., vaginal agenesis; gonadal agenesis)
    * sex chromosome anomalies (e.g., Turner Syndrome; Klinefelter Syndrome; sex chromosome mosaicism)
    * disorders of gonadal development (e.g., ovotestes)

DSD consequently include anomalies of the sex chromosomes, the gonads, the reproductive ducts, and the genitalia. Note that the term "intersex" is avoided here because of its imprecision.

http://www.accordalliance.org/dsdguidelines/htdocs/clinical/index.html

i like to think of it as an intersext condition of the brain as there has been research done. the findings are that the grey matter of an ftm's brain develops like that of a man's brain and vice versa for mtfs. to bad the grey matter i am speaking of can not be imaged with current technology so the only 'transexual test' can be done when you are dead... sucks for us.

If being trans is due to physical differences in the brain that resemble more closely those found in people assigned a different sex at birth (as is becoming more and more likely from a scientific perspective), then the only way it can be considered not an intersex condition is if we deny that the brain is part of the body.

And if people with currently classified intersex conditions wish to maintain a distance from trans folks, then there should be a second umbrella term under which both groups (those of us whose differences are found primarily in the brain and those whose differences are usually more physically overt) are categorized.

Quote from: Adio on January 17, 2012, 02:47:35 AMWho said that all intersex conditions relate to sex chromosomes and result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility?

Actually, Annah did.

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 17, 2012, 06:10:11 AM
   Actually, Annah did.

Not trying to start a fight, but she did not say "all" (or always, etc.) intersex conditions cause infertility.  Actually, the first mention of it was by you.  I can't fully comment on the other part of your statement because she used a couple different wordings in her definition of intersex.  However, none used an absolute that I can find.