As I have stated before, I strongly believe that trans is a subcategory of intersex. 

Quote from: justmeinoz on January 16, 2012, 02:33:31 AM
One is external the other internal, so the issues faced are similar but not the same.

Wait a minute.  There are chromosomal/genetic intersex conditions which show no outward signs at birth, including:
-XX male (de la Chapelle syndrome)
-Complete AIS, the only sign is a lack of menstruation over a decade later but they have an otherwise normal puberty

There are other conditions which show no signs at birth, but prevent a normal puberty from occurring, such as gonadal dysgenesis.  While speaking of "outward signs" then I would say transgender children and teens often exhibit many outward signs.  Is not the brain's primary biological function to govern behavior?

Point being: chromosomes and gonads are just as "internal" as the brain.

Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 01:05:17 AM
Transsexualism is not intersex. It just isn't unless you are a transsexual and intersex...which I explained earlier does happen).

You know, if someone's going to claim it's wrong for transsexuals to also identity as intersex, I have a slight problem with the same person thinking that it's ok for intersex people (by popular definition) to also identify as transsexual.

If you're going to 'other' transsexuals, don't then try to lay claim to our identity also, after denying us what you perceive as 'your' identity based on the popular definition of intersexuality.  That strikes me as wrong on multiple levels.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2012, 03:06:27 PM
The analogy is relevant because I don't agree that they are both "cancer."

Ah, thank you for the clarification. In that case I retract my previous statement.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2012, 03:06:27 PM
It would be different if the intersex folks were welcoming us with open arms or something, but if you want to see some real anger, make this post in an intersex forum.

I already did, I'm waiting for the backlash as we speak...

Quote from: Inanna on January 17, 2012, 03:31:51 PM
You know, if someone's going to claim it's wrong for transsexuals to also identity as intersex, I have a slight problem with the same person thinking that it's ok for intersex people (by popular definition) to also identify as transsexual.

If you're going to 'other' transsexuals, don't then try to lay claim to our identity also, after denying us what you perceive as 'your' identity based on the popular definition of intersexuality.  That strikes me as wrong on multiple levels.

I have to say I agree with this completely. Annah, if by your definition intersex people are those who have ambiguouse genitalia or chromosomes, then how can you be trans at the same time, when you see this as a mental disorder with no physical grounds? If you are intersex, then by the standard definitions your gender identity has medical backing, and you're not in the 'trans crackpot' boat with the rest of us, being denied medical treatment.

If you're going to get offended and say I cannot possibly understand the things you've had to deal with, then I feel justified in finding it offensive that you would equate your experience with my own.

Kia Ora,

If all trans-people were to label themselves 'Intersex' would this win favour with the general public ? In other words would the general public be more sympathetic to ones plight ? "Ah you poor thing having to live with such a condition-I do hope you can get it 'fixed' !"=This type of sympathy... After all the intersex condition is recognised as a genuine 'medical/congenital' condition...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 03:43:11 PM
I already did, I'm waiting for the backlash as we speak...

I find their anger about being associated with transsexuals very telling.

  This was a very interesting read, ty bane! xo

Quote from: Danielle×o on January 17, 2012, 04:56:30 PM
  This was a very interesting read, ty bane! xo

You're welcome?

Quote from: Inanna on January 17, 2012, 04:49:38 PM
I find their anger about being associated with transsexuals very telling.

I'm having a hard time not being offended by it myself, but that's only going to incite more anger, and turn conversation sour, so I'm trying not to dwell on it.

The general public doesn't have a clue what intersex means, so one would have to explain it to each person when mentioning it. Lots of people know what 'hermaphrodite' means in a crude sort of way and of course, it is a term that is discouraged because it is derogatory. People are more familiar with transgender/transsexual than intersex.  So thinking it will make it easier just to say 'I have an intersex condition' won't cut it, there will be need for an explanation as to what the term means.  Saying 'I was born that way', works with either term though.   

Quote from: Hermione01 on January 17, 2012, 05:29:04 PM
The general public doesn't have a clue what intersex means, so one would have to explain it to each person when mentioning it. Lots of people know what 'hermaphrodite' means in a crude sort of way and of course, it is a term that is discouraged because it is derogatory. People are more familiar with transgender/transsexual than intersex.  So thinking it will make it easier just to say 'I have an intersex condition' won't cut it, there will be need for an explanation as to what the term means.  Saying 'I was born that way', works with either term though.   

In regards to the general public you would be right, but this isn't just about that. If trans people were recognised by the medical community as having an intersex condition then we would be able to access medical treatment a lot more easily, and would no longer have to face being told we're crazy, or that this is a choice.

Quote from: Zenda on January 17, 2012, 03:55:19 PM
Kia Ora,

If all trans-people were to label themselves 'Intersex' would this win favour with the general public ? In other words would the general public be more sympathetic to ones plight ? "Ah you poor thing having to live with such a condition-I do hope you can get it 'fixed' !"=This type of sympathy... After all the intersex condition is recognised as a genuine 'medical/congenital' condition...

Metta Zenda

Zenda, you, as so often, hit the nail on its head.
Ofcourse, many Transsexuals, however, DO consider their condition to be an Intersex Condition, for the reason that they simply cannot see any other cause for how they have literally felt like one Gender ever since childhood, but nonetheless had the Anatomy of the other Sex, and for these people, I actually do find it not only very plausible, but even nearly a fact,  that their condition is in actuality a type of Intersex Condition.

However... It is also apparent that some transsexuals, do, just as you said, want to be collected under the Intersex Umbrella as a safeguard, and only to have something to "blame" their state of being on(Which is fully understandable). For instance, if someone asks; "But why?" then they just have to reply; "Doesn't matter, cuz I'm born like this!".
In short, if the Intersex Label would be taken in usage as an actual, Medical term, then it could only be diagnosed by not only Psychiatric tests but also certain Medical Tests on the patient in question; Tests developed to match the same biological anomalies that have been found in Scientific research in Transsexuals where the cause is very apparently Biological- Not to those that these anomalies are not found in and their feelings are strictly Psychological in Nature, although they may feel just as strongly about their Identity as the 'Medical' and Biologically diagnosed type of Transsexual.

So, would it unite or just split up the Community even further?

Personally, I have absolutely no problem with the Label being used for only one type of Transsexual while other "labels" would apply for others, as I think that it would rather make the T-Community even more diverse and rich, and truly show that everyone, even here, is different, despite at the same time sharing so much in common.

It would be awfully boring if everybody were and felt the exact same wayunder the TG-Umbrella and one single diagnosis applied to everyone.

Quote from: Inanna on January 17, 2012, 03:31:51 PM
You know, if someone's going to claim it's wrong for transsexuals to also identity as intersex, I have a slight problem with the same person thinking that it's ok for intersex people (by popular definition) to also identify as transsexual.

If you're going to 'other' transsexuals, don't then try to lay claim to our identity also, after denying us what you perceive as 'your' identity based on the popular definition of intersexuality.  That strikes me as wrong on multiple levels.

I am an intersex person who presented to society as a male and then I transitioned as a presentation as a female. An Intersex person can be both. If you don't like it, complain to the medical and psychological societies....not me.

As far as it stands, if one is a bio female or a bio male and transitions to the other gender it is called transsexual. Not intersex. Sorry you don't like my answer, but until medicine and medical practice and applications change it is what it is.

To say one is intersex to avoid the taboos of the word transsexual is not only offensive to the intersex person but it can be offensive to the transsexual person as well....because the taboo becomes strengthen when a transsexual doesn't like their own diagnoses.

Im done with these series of cloned threads

Quote from: Annah on January 18, 2012, 10:28:30 AMI am an intersex person who presented to society as a male and then I transitioned as a presentation as a female. An Intersex person can be both. If you don't like it, complain to the medical and psychological societies....not me.

As I said before, I'm curious about how this works. Of course you can be trans, and if that's how you identify then I absolutely respect that, but from a purely medical point of view, if you are intersex then your gender identity (no matter which side of the spectrum it is on) has medical backing. Unless I'm missing something here, that puts you in a much stronger possition to justify your identity than the rest of us, as well as (I'm making an assumption here, please correct me if I'm wrong) much easier access to medical intervention and things like insurance coverage.

Quote from: Annah on January 18, 2012, 10:28:30 AM
[clipped]
As far as it stands, if one is a bio female or a bio male and transitions to the other gender it is called transsexual. Not intersex. Sorry you don't like my answer, but until medicine and medical practice and applications change it is what it is.

To say one is intersex to avoid the taboos of the word transsexual is not only offensive to the intersex person but it can be offensive to the transsexual person as well....because the taboo becomes strengthen when a transsexual doesn't like their own diagnoses.
[clipped]

Annah,
I'm COMPLETLY OF YOUR OPINION... maybe you will still read this on here.

And I'm of your opinion for the VERY reasons you explained.

Also I shall leave this stuff aside now, it is of no more value added to me either.

Thanks all,
Axélle

So much hate... Why does there have to be so much tension and undeserved attacks and assumptions of what people think? I'm quite disappointed.

Anyway, off-topic, Bishounen, I'm curious. Why are there Capitals in Your sentences like This? o.o

Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 08:07:34 AM
In short, if the Intersex Label would be taken in usage as an actual, Medical term, then it could only be diagnosed by not only Psychiatric tests but also certain Medical Tests on the patient in question; Tests developed to match the same biological anomalies that have been found in Scientific research in Transsexuals where the cause is very apparently Biological- Not to those that these anomalies are not found in and their feelings are strictly Psychological in Nature, although they may feel just as strongly about their Identity as the 'Medical' and Biologically diagnosed type of Transsexual.

So, would it unite or just split up the Community even further?

Scientifically, it would be interesting to see how many transexuals actually have physical anomolies explaining their condition, yet I don't think we have the medical technology to determine this yet.  Plus, what if it is a combination of physical and environmental.  Environment can trigger genetic markers.  Anyway, it would probably open up a whole new can of worms and strengthen the debate about who is and is not a "real"  transexual.  At this point, all of this talk is hypothetical since we don't have scientific backing, which is required for any theories to be supported by the medical community.  Also raises the spectre of what would happen if you could test fetuses for this condition, just like what would happen if you could test fetuses to determine whether they were going to be gay or straight.  Another can of worms, especially for a society that still has a long way to go in moral development.

Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 11:40:21 AM
So much hate... Why does there have to be so much tension and undeserved attacks and assumptions of what people think? I'm quite disappointed.

Yes. Next it will be 'Handbags at dawn'. It's because of in-fighting that I'll more than likely go stealth. Why should I have pride in being transsexual when we can't even unite as a cohesive unit? We'd make a piss poor army. I may be intersex, I don't know. I know I certainly don't fit the usual profile for Transsexual. I'm short, standing at 5'5, little to no adams apple, been told my voice is gender neutral, I get period-like symptoms every month... How I have these symptoms is baffling to me because as far as I know I don't have the organs to make me feel like crap. But to be honest, I don't care.

There is one label that I do fit and do wear with pride: ME
I am happy and proud to finally be me. Anything beyond that is a sub-category. So whatever your opinion over this label war between IS and TS, just wear one label with pride. that you are yourself. Its a long hard road to earn that label. But you earn it and you cannot be denied it.

Quote from: Robertina on January 18, 2012, 11:58:30 AM
Scientifically, it would be interesting to see how many transexuals actually have physical anomolies explaining their condition, yet I don't think we have the medical technology to determine this yet.  Plus, what if it is a combination of physical and environmental.  Environment can trigger genetic markers.  Anyway, it would probably open up a whole new can of worms and strengthen the debate about who is and is not a "real"  transexual.  At this point, all of this talk is hypothetical since we don't have scientific backing, which is required for any theories to be supported by the medical community.  Also raises the spectre of what would happen if you could test fetuses for this condition, just like what would happen if you could test fetuses to determine whether they were going to be gay or straight.  Another can of worms, especially for a society that still has a long way to go in moral development.

I believe that it may be only physical, only enviromental or both physical and enviromental depending from case to case.

As for the question whether it would be possible to test Fetuses for "this", I have actually pondered about that stuff aswell, and whether it would one day be possible(Which I think it will, atleast to a extent), to check if a fetus have "The HBS-Condition", or whatever they would coin it, and what it could mean.

Doubtless, a lot of fetuses would be aborted, to "Spare the sufferring". Probably many would view the unborn child as many people would view a fetus with Down's; As a "poor freak", or the like.

Then there is also the scenario of if this would perhaps somehow and eventually be treatable with Biotechnology and the Fetus, before a specific age, could be "cured".
That is also a somewhat unsettling scenario, as the appliers of the "cure", would actually change and decide the personality of someone, or how to word it.

There are many other questions that would arise aswell, that would be both unnerving aswell as, ofcouse, also having potentiall benefits if used correctly(Such as early treatment and preparation of the Family on the matter).


About the Scientific Evidence and the scenario being hypothetical, I think I must disagree, as I believe that the matter is rather Theoretical than Hypothetical, as many new Scientific findings on Biological causes(For atleast some) have been made only during the later years aswell as discussions on how to view Transsexualism.

Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 11:40:21 AM
Anyway, off-topic, Bishounen, I'm curious. Why are there Capitals in Your sentences like This? o.o

Where? How do you mean?o,o

Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 08:07:34 AM
Zenda, you, as so often, hit the nail on its head.
Ofcourse, many Transsexuals, however, DO consider their condition to be an Intersex Condition, for the reason that they simply cannot see any other cause for how they have literally felt like one Gender ever since childhood, but nonetheless had the Anatomy of the other Sex, and for these people, I actually do find it not only very plausible, but even nearly a fact,  that their condition is in actuality a type of Intersex Condition.

However... It is also apparent that some transsexuals, do, just as you said, want to be collected under the Intersex Umbrella as a safeguard, and only to have something to "blame" their state of being on(Which is fully understandable). For instance, if someone asks; "But why?" then they just have to reply; "Doesn't matter, cuz I'm born like this!".
In short, if the Intersex Label would be taken in usage as an actual, Medical term, then it could only be diagnosed by not only Psychiatric tests but also certain Medical Tests on the patient in question; Tests developed to match the same biological anomalies that have been found in Scientific research in Transsexuals where the cause is very apparently Biological- Not to those that these anomalies are not found in and their feelings are strictly Psychological in Nature, although they may feel just as strongly about their Identity as the 'Medical' and Biologically diagnosed type of Transsexual.

So, would it unite or just split up the Community even further?

Personally, I have absolutely no problem with the Label being used for only one type of Transsexual while other "labels" would apply for others, as I think that it would rather make the T-Community even more diverse and rich, and truly show that everyone, even here, is different, despite at the same time sharing so much in common.

It would be awfully boring if everybody were and felt the exact same wayunder the TG-Umbrella and one single diagnosis applied to everyone.

Underlined a few.

Keaira: I even have a lot of trouble understanding the very concept of pride in some areas... "I'm proud to be trans!" - "What, you're proud of having been unhappy for a birth defect, having suffered, having remaining masculine traits, and being unable to reproduce?"... "I'm proud to be gay!" - "What, you're proud of being yourself? What about being proud of having brown eyes?" It doesn't make sense... I mean, pride, in theory, is felt about something you feel is good, or better than the rest. Being proud of being what you are feels weird. I'd understand being proud of having transitioned instead of staying in unhappiness, or being proud of not letting oneself be put down by homophobia, but it'S not like being trans or gay is in any way superior to cis-ness and straight-ness...

And here I go rambling about something useless and unrelated.

Anyway, I don't really feel bad about a "can of worms" being opened. Scientists aren't fools. They wouldn't base themselves off physical examinations only until they're sure about what they're doing. Nor do I concern myself with changing a baby's personality. In the womb, personality is not formed yet, and I'm pretty sure 90% of it could still be entirely changed depending on environmental factors during pregnancy and infance, regardless of any doctor's interention. Doing such a thing would just make the child, and everyone, happier.

A: I honestly do not understand how my post can look like that from your place, as I have NOT underlined any word at all in that post whatsoever.

Extremely odd.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 12:55:50 PM
A: I honestly do not understand how my post can look like that from your place, as I have NOT underlined any word at all in that post whatsoever.

Extremely odd.

Hahaha, Bishounen she underlined the words you capitalised, in answer to you saying you didn't see any.