Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that. 

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

Personally I try to give a light smile if I catch someone looking at me. because other wise it comes off Bitchy.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

Very cool article on this subject: http://www.autostraddle.com/on-display-navigating-the-male-gaze-108521/

And ya, it's a bit of an odd experience getting stared at all the time. Can never really go invisible in public anymore, someone is ALWAYS looking at you. I thought I'd be kind of immune since I present more andro, but it's obviously not enough.

Eventually I'll get used to it I guess. And at least I get stared at less than when I was totally ungenderable.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 12:50:32 PM
First of all everyone has an opinion.  I am one that often tells people I think they pass when others are saying no they don't.   I'm so tempted to put pictures of my friends on here and show you what I encounter every day.  I know that about 50% of them if you put their picture up here  most people would say they don't pass.

I think a better thread would be,  what do you think works on me.   And then asking people what are their best features.

The other thing is range.  If someone started younger they are going to have a better chance at passing.   Older women are going to have a harder time.  And so if there is nothing they can do about it then there's nothing they can do about it.  So when they ask if they are passing I'm going by what they have use.

For example I think JoeyD passes perfectly.  There was another woman on here who posted recently and I said 100 percent.   She said she was 40 and had just started and I would never in a million years think she wasn't a woman.  I meant it.  I was surprised at how feminine she looked considering she was just starting out.

What bothers me more is when I see people telling posters that they have to wear a wig or grow out their hair etc.   It's about having this "image" of a "woman" and if the poster doesn't look like a "pretty girl" with long hair, make up, no adams apple,  skinny,  etc, then they don't pass.

That to me is saying that you have to look a certain way to pass.   I have also noticed that many of the people on this site who in my opinion,  don't pass,  are much faster to say that others don't pass when to me they do.  They might not look gorgeous.  But they do pass

Would she pass?




or her




or her




or her




Here's what I think doesn't pass



Fake hair,  way too much make up,  chola brows and dark red lipstick.  If you scrubbed her off and put on a more natural hair, then to me she'd pass.


When I see people telling people to put on make up and get a wig,  this is what I think will pass.   I've mentioned that some people look like orthodox jewish women on this site because of the wigs



This woman would probably be told she doesn't pass.  Or that she passes but you can still clock her etc.   I suppose some of you must live in very isolated areas with very little diversity in women.  Because when I say someone passes I am thinking  "If I saw the person on the street would I "clock them."  I have clocked a transgender woman before.  She looked a lot like the picture above.

So in some cases I think it's turning into a fake sort of woman.   No woman I know would be caught dead walking out of their house with the make up and hair that the woman has in the blue shirt.  It looks "->-bleeped-<-."

So to me the question is,  can you pass as is.  Would I immediately think you are a woman.  Some people have posted you tube videos that they show their voice and mannerisms.  And that changes the game.  The "put on voice." and other body movements etc.   That's also what "clocks" a person.  But if you are asking does your picture pass,  lets say just for a facebook page,  then yes I'll be honest if you pass.

I have also personally sent people PMs if they don't really pass and have given people pointers. 


There's a difference in asking for constructive feedback and asking for "Can I pass"   Well frankly just because you pass doesn't mean you are beautiful.  You just look like an ugly woman.    Sometimes I'll give feedback as to go for a certain look or emulate a certain style.   Seems to me that people give advice on here on how to definitely look "->-bleeped-<-"  or Drag Queenish.   Then they think it's expert opinion or something.

Very few woman on this site that I have seen look like movie stars or models.  JoeyD and Natalie are two I think that do.   But some of you look like gorgeous regular women.   And if others are annoyed because they don't like seeing someone else get a compliment.  Then that is on you.  It doesn't make the statement not true.

I have shared my experience with being clocked as a cisgender woman.  But I also have experiences that have shown me that not everyone sees everyone the same way.  For example my own mother used to say I was hulking and brutish because I was so tall.  She said I walked like a man.   And I totally believed her for years.

Then one year I was in a play  "The House of Bernarda Alba"  and I played the "ugly sister"  and the director stopped the rehearsal one day and took me aside and had someone work with me on my stage movement because he said     "You are too graceful in your movements,  you are supposed to be moving like you are oppressed or in a masculine way."   I was dumbfounded and told my friends that I already thought I did.  They all thought I was ridiculous.  They said I moved like a ballet dancer.  Very graceful.      So because one person told me something,  I believed it.  It completely wasn't true.

So my advice would be this,  why do you think so many people don't pass?   What's going on with you, if you are so sure that you can tell the person doesn't pass?   

If someone has  a masculine jaw, and that's it,  then to me they look like a woman with a masculine jaw.   One girl put up a totally gorgeous picture with an adams apple showing.  To me she looked totally cis but like she had an adams apple.    Brawny arms?   Well she looks like a woman with brawny arms.

To me the only way a woman won't pass is if she's got more than two features that are masculine.   So a strong brow,  fake hair and five o'clock shadow, then yeah no.    Strong jaw,  adams apple and very brawny shoulder area,  then yeah no.

But having one or two features doesn't make you masculine.   Having a narrow hip line makes you look like a woman with a narrow hip line.


I think people are insecure about their own ability to pass and project that onto other people.   I mean isn't the whole point of this thread


"How dare you tell them they pass when I can clearly see that they don't.   You are dooming them.   You are giving them false hope.  How dare you not tell them MY truth. How dare you have a different opinion.  You must be lying."


That's how it comes across to me.   So get over it.  Not everyone sees people the same way.

Okay, full pass on the last pics except for the makeup on the next last one, then, is that correctly understood? No need for FFS and such?
I will take the liberty to experiment alittle now and will therefore put up some pics of people with moderate makeup and with fairly 'natural' hairstyles.
My question to you is, can you tell only from facial build which one is most likely a Cis-female on which one/s is Trans?

And if so, why?
If not, why?

Quote from: Beverley on January 18, 2012, 01:20:57 PM

Voice is a real issue that many of us fail to deal with. In my trans support group, there are about six or seven ladies that have really deep masculine, booming voices and I find it so hard not to think 'him' instead of 'her'. The voice triggers me and if it does that to me what is it like for an ordinary non-trans person?

Right there is a trans girl in our church = I = have screwed up and called he/him due to their booming voice. It's hard to see/think female when you're listening to a guys voice. I've seen PLENTY of women I really wasn't sure about, maybe they looked real andro with shortish hair etc but when they said something, it clocked them A or B. I'm sure if someone did call me sir now (it's been a LONG time thank God) all I'd have to do is say "excuse me?" and they would apologize.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 01:00:33 PM
It just doesn't work in real life........I told  a MTF she should grow out her eyebrows a bit because too thin plucked, pencilled in eyebrows tend to make born women  look dumb/cheap/whorish/harsh and most born women know that.
And some MTF's don't seem to realise that.
I told her that eyebrows consist of thin hairs and not (red!) pencil lines............and should be a bit wide.
Check!
Then she had her eyebrows tattood.............in a horrible harsh looking fashion, drawing a lot of attention to her rather masculine facial features.
No Tattoos, Check!
Then there's another make up issue: tons of death mask foundation and powder...draws a lot attention too because it makes your facial skin look like a death mask...
Apart from some Lipbalm, no make/up at all....so, Half/Check I guess. I can never see myself walk around with that extremely shiny red lipstick, lol
A normal, healthy skin is a bit glossy.......so if a MTF has to hide beardgrowth she'd better use a foundation that's a teeny tiny bit shiny.
I prefer the ´healthy skin is best skin´ approach. Sometimes I see girls walk around with tons of blush and bronze and I feel a little sad about it
Wigs..........terrible cheap looking nylonwigs, too thick, too full, too shiny making a MTF head look even bigger than it already is...
Ughh, I would consider hair/implants first...wigs would make me full like a clown , and since most wigs you see are a bit clowny I stay away from those
Clothes.......better wear somewhat androgynous clothes....because stereotypical women's clothes will accentuate your masculine physical features.......
I wear uni/sex-androgynous most of the time

Adding a little comment outside of the quote: It's good to read so many tips and things, especially before everything is changing in my life. I am still in my pre-hormones talks with my psychologist (at the national genderclinic in a hospital) but I hope to start this year, it's getting very exciting...and I am getting anxcious

She asked me today about the negatives and positives of life -pshysical, mentally, socially) of being a man or woman and how I viewed that, and while talking about that she also mentioned she read from my psychological test I had to under-go previously that my face looked more feminine than almost all the other clients she saw. Maybe a motivational thing to say, maybe honest, I am not sure

Anyway, about the 'Do I Pass thread, I agree with Mari..I just don't post there because it's a little too sensitive and I don't like to lie to someone who has the idea that he/she passes. A lot more men pass but I guess it's just easier for them because coming from a bio woman's body it's easier become more masculine. Looking prettier is tougher than looking tough

Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 02:10:09 PM
Okay, full pass on the last pics except for the makeup on the next last one, then, is that correctly understood? No need for FFS and such?
I will take the liberty to experiment alittle now and will therefore put up some pics of people with moderate makeup and with fairly 'natural' hairstyles.
My question to you is, can you tell only from facial build which one is most likely a Cis-female on which one/s is Trans?

And if so, why?
If not, why?

Are you asking me this?  Because I'm not sure.    But yes I think that if the woman in the blue shirt washed her face and even went with short hair but say "earrings"  that she'd pass  much much better than she does with all that crap on her face.

Unless you are very young,  or are going for a look,  I do not think any woman should ever wear eyeshadow.  Especially not purple eye shadow.  Does she really think that makes her look like a woman?


The picture you posted her is obviously passing.  I don't think the OP would say it's wrong to say full pass on that one. 

Can you tell from facial features,   only the brow to me.  If a woman has a very strong brow then she will have a harder time passing.  And also beard growth.  That's another clue and I do understand that sometimes people have to wear a ton of make up to cover the shadow.  So that's different as well.



Also that article was fantastic.  I hope people read it.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

You're so right! But there's a difference between male and female 'being looked at': (straight) males try to look me in the eyes, which I avoid by turning my face half a way,  (straight) females tend to check out my hair, make up, earrings, clothing, shoes and not really who's in them.

And oh, btw: I don't look very nice without my not too light, not too dark purple eyeshadow above my green eyes ;-)

That article was a good read but made me wonder............how anyone could go from a totally passable boy masculine comportment etc)  to a totally passable girl (feminine comportment etc) in only a few months?

She dresses like a fifties housewife I dress like Jackie Kennedy/Audrey Hepburn early to mid sixties. Love that simple elegant style.

Quote from: Beverley on January 18, 2012, 01:20:57 PM
I am sure that people on here are fed up with me saying this, but confidence in yourself is EVERYTHING. I do not photograph well but I pass OK. I spent Monday night in a crowded mall in one of England's biggest shopping centres, I talked with people and shop assistants and none of them had the momentary hesitation and doubtful eyes that say "clocked". Not one. I was in and out of ladies' changing rooms too. Did I pass? Yes I did.

when I was on my 3rd month of HRT I tried on swimsuits with a friend. I used the womens changing rooms and there was no issue. But I sure felt self conscious. lol

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 03:45:55 PM

That article was a good read but made me wonder............how anyone could go from a totally passable boy masculine comportment etc)  to a totally passable girl (feminine comportment etc) in only a few months?

I could switch both gender personalities easily.
Of course I prefer the female one since it's me.




to



(these are before hormones, btw)

Androgyny is a gift. ^_^

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Aww thanks Amalina.   (((HUGS)))

Oh there's something else I've been wondering about going out in public.   I wonder if most of you don't realize that men will look at you,  women will look at you because women pretty much spend the entire day getting looked at and checked out and scanned.   ALL DAY LONG.  In fact I've subconsciously trained myself not to make eye contact with men on the street because it comes across as an invitation of sorts.   So tend to look around rather than "at" people.

But I've wondered if transgender women might be mistaking being looked at as being clocked.   Just curious if anyone has any experience with that.

I don't know, I always tend to go in to a store with a purpose. I've made eye contact with lots of strangers and I've not seen anyone do a double take either, even at my most feminine looking. heck, even before  HRT though I've been called a 'lady', so I do think Clothing choice is very important. Even your coat can boost your appearance. I will, if I can, wear this particular coat when it's cold. and it's gotten me the best reactions before HRT.



One good thing is that it has an inner bolero-like zipper piece inside that has a mock turtle neck collar that can obscure the appearance of your neck and therefore your adams apple. and it looks very feminine yet kind of classy. I'll be wearing it with my dress that I want if It's cold outside.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 03:45:55 PM
That article was a good read but made me wonder............how anyone could go from a totally passable boy masculine comportment etc)  to a totally passable girl (feminine comportment etc) in only a few months?

Annika started off very androgynous. She was only around 7 months on HRT when she wrote that article. And some of us don't ever have much in the way of masculine mannerisms or movement or even voice.

*Shrug* It happens. Some of us get lucky. Some of us get very lucky. (Points at JoeyD ) I was wandering around women's change rooms after 6 months on hormones myself.

This is her blog: http://transgenderexpress.wordpress.com/
You can see what she started out like.

Quote from: JoeyD on January 18, 2012, 04:13:10 PM
I could easily switch both gender personalities easily.
Of course I prefer the female one since it's me.




to



(these are before hormones, btw)

Androgyny is a gift. ^_^

Wow! yea, you look like 2 different people.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 18, 2012, 04:18:39 PM
Annika started off very androgynous. She was only around 7 months on HRT when she wrote that article. And some of us don't ever have much in the way of masculine mannerisms or movement or even voice.

*Shrug* It happens. Some of us get lucky. Some of us get very lucky. (Points at JoeyD ) I was wandering around women's change rooms after 6 months on hormones myself.

This is her blog: http://transgenderexpress.wordpress.com/
You can see what she started out like.

<I used to be invisible in public when I was read as a heternormative white upper-middle-class cisgender boy>

Doesn't sound too androgynous....not even 'gayish'

She describes her androgynous state when she started using make up etc.


And being naturally totally androgynous means getting looked at too, as I remember from my pre hrt days.

People trying to decide what sex I was, sometimes for more than 20 seconds....and no, it was impossible for me to switch from a totally passable boy to a totally passable girl like JoeyD describes. I wasn't a passable boy at all. And trying to would have been ridiculous, like bad acting.

I was (naturally) androgynous to such a degree I could only switch to a passable girl.

I've NEVER EVER tasted the 'privilege' of being a passable man...way too androgynous pre HRT.

And I wish I had! Really!
I simply miss something about that in my past...being unhappy as a passable male is something I prefer to being unhapply as totally androgynous/way too feminine as a man.
Makes you very visible AND vulnerable too. No way of leading a 'normal' life when you're visible like that, sticking out like a sore thumb, having an education, building a carreer etcetcetc.
THAT was impossible for me, because of being very androgynous looking and naturally feminine acting.

So yes, considering that I envy 'ex straight' MTF's.

I read a post in the FFS section about someone who KNEW she was MTF, married  a woman nevertheless, had an excellent education, built a supercareer that made her earn A LOT of $$$, divorced her wife and spend A LOT of $$$$ on FFS....

Minus the wife, I was and am only into men... and not capable of lying THAT harsh to people/a partner...I would have done the same.

That's a good foundation for later life as a MTF plus it gives you the excellent chance to build a strong, healthy, cast iron ego.

I'm a visiting nurse btw.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 18, 2012, 04:34:09 PM
<I used to be invisible in public when I was read as a heternormative white upper-middle-class cisgender boy>

Doesn't sound too androgynous....not even 'gayish'

She describes her androgynous state when she started using make up etc.


And being naturally totally androgynous means getting looked at too, as I remember from my pre hrt days. But she describes her androgynous state when she started using make up etc.

People trying to decide what sex I was, sometimes for more than 20 seconds....and no, it was impossible for me to switch from totally passable boy to a totally passable girl like Joey describes.

I was (naturally) androgynous to such a degree I could only switch to a passable girl.

I've NEVER EVER tasted the 'privilege' of being a passable man...way too androgynous pre HRT.

And I wish I had! Really!

Seriously? I was constantly seen as effeminate or gay. which used to really make my blood boil. I mean one of my Sister-in-Law's even told my wife when she met me that she thought I was very feminine. And this was how I looked:





I think I look pretty guy-ish there right?

Quote from: Beverley on January 18, 2012, 04:25:10 PM
Wow. Good for you. I lack the nerve for that just yet.

Beverley

You just have to take that one step out of your comfort zone.

 Passing is a pretty difficult thing to judge, what with it being so individual. I don't believe that a certain number of characteristics of a certain degree of severity can point to passability or not in a methodological way - I rather believe that it should be taken at face-value every time. And it's not always about what a person looks like, but what they do with what they look like, their posture, their mannerisms, and everything else.

I'm a bit harsh in my criticism. I know I've seen people that are told they pass when they don't... though, I have also seen people that I believe do pass, or could pass with minor adjustments, that are told that they do not pass.

I would probably clock myself if I saw myself walking down the street. I don't know if I pass or not - my experience has told me that I do, but I take issue with my face and its bone structure. Many will say I pass, some may say I don't...

And as such, I don't believe anyone has the authority or the right to say "Umm, no, you actually don't pass." People's opinions are different, and while trying to judge whether someone is passable or not could be perceived as a science, it is in fact extremely subjective, and no two people will ever have the exact same feelings and opinions when making a verdict.

The closest thing to truth you can have is when many people express their opinions, and you try to decide for yourself how well you're presenting to the general public. But again, that is nothing that anyone other than the subject can make a decision on.

Maybe I should make a post in the Do I Pass thread ;O. Might be fun... alas, it is nearly time to get ready and get going.

Quote from: mixie on January 18, 2012, 12:50:32 PMOne girl put up a totally gorgeous picture with an adams apple showing.  To me she looked totally cis but like she had an adams apple. 

You're talking about me aren't you? Geez, you just keep making my day.

I gave up posting in the 'Do I pass?' thread, simply because what I was being told, somewhat unkindly by some, does not reflect my reality..

Hmm, I might actually post a pic in that thread just to see what kind of comments I get this time around.. 

Anon posted this in a thread I posted in the FtM forum.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,113939.0.html
Before reading the post I looked at your profile picture and wondered how anyone could possibly see you as male, but then I realized the mistake. Congrats!

That tells me right there that maybe we need to post to the FtM thread since they've had some experience of what to look for from a male perspective. We're so conditioned to what to look for and possibly somewhat clouded in judgement. We could do the same for the guys.