Quote from: Haven on January 22, 2012, 10:59:42 PM
I know I'm new but I've noticed this as well.. I looked through the "Do I pass thread" and it seemed more like a self esteem builder thread than an honest one.  I'd expect honesty I can look in the mirror be and mostly objective but when people post and haven't even started mones and have a 5 of clock shadow and everyones telling them they pass you're only setting them up for embarassment.

Comments like "I'll never tell anyone they don't pass" and "were all women" are unhelpful and although admirable traits have no place in a thread titled " Do I Pass?".  Maybe make a new thread for " Tell me im pretty " or some other nonsense but I'd appreciate the honesty and I wouldn't lie to other people so I'd hope they do the same for me.

Not telling someone they don't pass, is not the same thing as telling everyone they DO pass.  There is a HUGE difference.

And I think that needs to be acknowledged.  What's really happening in a lot of the comments is the projection of dysphoria.   Not actual honesty.

If I see a chubby woman and she asks me  "Do I look skinny"  I'm thinking that she has a dysphoria to begin with.

I'll give you an honest example.  I do not look like most of my sisters.   I am honestly much more attractive than my sisters.   When I'd come to visit them at home their friends would meet me and say "She's your SISTER?"  and it was pretty obvious what they meant.

One year my three sisters started a conversation about it.  And I said to one of my sisters "Actually you and I have the same facial structure,  you're just heavier than me."  And she flipped out   "What are you calling me FAT?"  And I got really annoyed.  My sister is so fat that her gut hangs half way down to her knees.   Of course she's fat.  I got annoyed that she wasn't willing to be honest.

I am one of the most honest people you will ever meet.   I don't coddle or try to tell less than the truth.  Part of it is that I am an INTP and I tend to be completely logical in my perception of things.  It's gotten me into trouble with female friends for years.

At the same time,  those female friends who know me a long time appreciate that they can always come to me in honesty.    So they know from all the times that I was seemingly a witch to them  that I was so honest.  They can trust me when they are insecure about something because they know I will tell them the truth.

I've had several women on here PM me and ask me questions and I've been honest every time.  Not always saying "YES YOU PASS" but rather I give constructive criticism or whatnot.

It is patronizing to suggest that because another person has a different opinion than you, they are "making nice."  Not so.   I just don't judge people by the same shallow standards as other people.

You mention "Tell me I'm pretty."  And fwammo that's exactly what I've pointed out all along.  Not all women are attractive.  If you look like a woman I'll tell you.  I might not say "Hey yeah great you look like a really ugly woman!  Awesome!"   But passing is passing.

At the same time.  I have not seen any ugly women yet so far.  I've seen normal women.   Not necessarily goddesses but regular normal women.


And if I may.   As a cisgendered woman  I resent womanhood being shoved into the shoe box of looking "Good enough"  because I am a woman no matter how bad I look.  If I gain weight  I'm a woman.  If I get into an accident tomorrow and mangle my face.  I'm a woman.  If I can't have kids  anymore I'm a woman.  If no man ever looks at me with sexual attraction again.  I'm a woman.  I'm a woman because I'm a woman.  Not because other people tell me I'm good enough.

Quote from: mixie on January 24, 2012, 10:04:11 PM
Not telling someone they don't pass, is not the same thing as telling everyone they DO pass.  There is a HUGE difference.

And I think that needs to be acknowledged.  What's really happening in a lot of the comments is the projection of dysphoria.   Not actual honesty.

If I see a chubby woman and she asks me  "Do I look skinny"  I'm thinking that she has a dysphoria to begin with.

I'll give you an honest example.  I do not look like most of my sisters.   I am honestly much more attractive than my sisters.   When I'd come to visit them at home their friends would meet me and say "She's your SISTER?"  and it was pretty obvious what they meant.

I'm just going to do a partial quote to save space.

I never made any indication of "Not telling someone they don't pass, is not the same thing as telling everyone they DO pass."  Nor do I believe if someone has a differing opinion than me do I think they're making nice.   There are some people who tell the truth, but to say that i'm patronizing them is going a little far.  The example I gave of someone with a beard asking if they pass i think fits the bill pretty well.  For the most part, if there is any indication of facial hair it will ruin your chances of passing, that is not my opinion.  Women do not have visible facial hair, yes they do have some if your looking really really close but they aren't getting clocked for it.

I wasn't specifically targeting anyone with my comment of people playing nice, so you really should'nt have felt any need to defend yourself I'm sure you are an honest person.  I agree that being pretty is not the same as passing, I have no problem with that.  Someone could be super unattractive to me but still pass as a woman so i wouldn't tell them they didn't pass cause they do.  I'm not confusing the two things, I understand people will have different opinions on the matter and obviously my transdar is gone up exponentially from research so I'm aware of that when i note if someone passes or not.  I'm far less critical than I probably sound, but you can't ignore that most people are sugar coating it.

Being pretty does not equal passing.

Asking do i pass? Is not the same as "tell me i pass".  I'm all for helping people build their self esteem and unless i'm specifically asked if a person passes I'll compliment them and help build them up but if they honestly want my opinion I'm going to give it to them.  You're only doing a disservice to them by sugarcoating, im not saying be mean but tell them the truth then be constructive.

In my art classes when I turn in designs I dont want a pat on the back, hell most of the time that pisses me off if that's all a teacher gives me If I ask for critique or if my piece looks good I want honesty otherwise its only goin to hurt when someone IS honest with me.  I know this analogy is a stretch but I feel it's somewhat similar.


"And if I may.   As a cisgendered woman  I resent womanhood being shoved into the shoe box of looking "Good enough"  because I am a woman no matter how bad I look.  If I gain weight  I'm a woman.  If I get into an accident tomorrow and mangle my face.  I'm a woman.  If I can't have kids  anymore I'm a woman.  If no man ever looks at me with sexual attraction again.  I'm a woman.  I'm a woman because I'm a woman.  Not because other people tell me I'm good enough."

You are a woman no matter how bad you look, however you also aren't a m2f trying to pass asking in a "Do I pass thread".  So to be honest, none of this applies to you.

Perfect example.   I'll post something just to show you what I mean.   I took a photography class, so I'm assuming you'll get it.   And it was a one credit course that I busted my but for and turned in a series of photographs. 

The instructor took my portfolio and threw out half the pictures as garbage.  He said "This is no good, no good, no good, no good " etc.  And I'm not a photographer.  But I was sitting in on a class with MFA students.   And he wasn't being mean.  He was being "honest."    I'll post below the pictures he tossed.   And for me I wasn't offended or upset.  Because I'm not a photographer I took it as constructive criticism.  But the other photographers came up to me and said that they actually thought the pictures he said were garabage,  we good.   REALLY GOOD.   So who is right.

What do you think of the pictures I am posting?











These aren't "Perfect pictures."  He was tossing them for technical reasons.  But others said they were interesting and intriguing pictures.  They didn't care if the technical aspects were spot on.

This is the same thing about passing.  Some women look intriguing and interesting.   Even with a mustache.   And if you don't know a woman who has a mustache you must not have ever met an older Italian lady.  It's not so cut and dry.

If you nail someone to the wall because they are not "technically perfect" what are you really saying.  What does passing "really mean."   That's what I don't understand.

Your example of photography doesn't really fit.  I have the same thing in art, instructor vs students.  Most of the time instructor is right, and your classmates are the ones who are wrong so not really a good example.  ( of course exceptions apply )  Also I'm done debating this your inserting made up statements now, i've repeated over and over they dont have to be perfect or pretty. 

Quote from: mixie on January 24, 2012, 10:46:30 PMIf you nail someone to the wall because they are not "technically perfect" what are you really saying.  What does passing "really mean."   That's what I don't understand.

Passing means being able to use a women's washroom without getting screamed at. It means not being hassled on the street. It means not missing out on a job 'cause they think you might make people "uncomfortable." It means safety, security, and often just plain sanity to be able to look in the mirror and see "female" looking back.

I pass. I pass in the way that I never have to worry about being outed by my face or my body or my voice. And I know exactly how incredibly privileged that makes me. Being trans* can be ->-bleeped-<-ing scary, and being visibly trans* can be just downright dangerous depending where you live - whether that means direct physical harm, or just the complete inability to ever get a job again in your life. Passing isn't a bloody joke.

That thread on the other hand? That is a joke. Passing isn't a picture. It doesn't work that way. And pretending they have any meaning isn't just dumb, it's dangerous. Make an advice thread, sure. Have the fabulous thread for self-esteem building, awesome. But don't bloody ask if you pass in a pic. Everyone who has said "you pass" in that thread, for whatever reason, isn't being honest or just doesn't understand what passing actually is.

Passing is that thing that happens out in the world walking around. And everyone finds out for themselves.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 24, 2012, 11:42:17 PM
Passing means being able to use a women's washroom without getting screamed at. It means not being hassled on the street. It means not missing out on a job 'cause they think you might make people "uncomfortable." It means safety, security, and often just plain sanity to be able to look in the mirror and see "female" looking back.

I pass. I pass in the way that I never have to worry about being outed by my face or my body or my voice. And I know exactly how incredibly privileged that makes me. Being trans* can be ->-bleeped-<-ing scary, and being visibly trans* can be just downright dangerous depending where you live - whether that means direct physical harm, or just the complete inability to ever get a job again in your life. Passing isn't a bloody joke.

That thread on the other hand? That is a joke. Passing isn't a picture. It doesn't work that way. And pretending they have any meaning isn't just dumb, it's dangerous. Make an advice thread, sure. Have the fabulous thread for self-esteem building, awesome. But don't bloody ask if you pass in a pic. Everyone who has said "you pass" in that thread, for whatever reason, isn't being honest or just doesn't understand what passing actually is.

Passing is that thing that happens out in the world walking around. And everyone finds out for themselves.

This I agree with.  So what is the point of the thread?  We all know that you can't tell if someone passes by a photograph.  You can't tell ANYTHING by a photograph.   Except if a person looks good in a photograph.  Period the end.

Ha, seems all 'got it now' ?! Great!

You can say that a PICTURE passes - if you honest, and that still be your own personal opinion. Period.

It is NOT at all the same to assume if the picture passes, that the person will. Not by a far shot.

That person may or may not pass and depending on her TOTAL presentation AND actually her mind-set! :-)

BTW, there will be cis-woman, AND cis-men that will not pass either, ever thought about THAT?


Kiss, kiss,
Axélle

Quote from: Haven on January 24, 2012, 11:19:35 PM
Your example of photography doesn't really fit.  I have the same thing in art, instructor vs students.  Most of the time instructor is right, and your classmates are the ones who are wrong so not really a good example.  ( of course exceptions apply )  Also I'm done debating this your inserting made up statements now, i've repeated over and over they dont have to be perfect or pretty. 

Art is subjective anyway. Who's to say what good art or bad art is? I got bad grades in my High School art class, But I like what I create.

Art is subjective, if your not in commercial art classes being taught to sell it lol.  Also, she said she wasn't a photographer but was in a photography class so I assume they would hold them to some standard.

Quote from: Haven on January 25, 2012, 12:41:36 AM
Art is subjective, if your not in commercial art classes being taught to sell it lol.  Also, she said she wasn't a photographer but was in a photography class so I assume they would hold them to some standard.

Passing is subjective.   You are the one who brought art into the conversation in the first place.  Now that it's panned out with a different perspective you want to shut it down?

It's a perfect example.  What is constructive criticism and what is an opinion.  My full stop on someone not passing is facial hair.  If I see facial hair obviously they don't pass.  But I've seen a few people on here with mustaches. If you don't know that women do sometimes have mustaches then you are really unaware.

I'm still wanting to know what "Passing" is supposed to mean.  I might say someone is passing here in a photograph but would never suggest they roll into a hick town and try to pick up a guy.

Again it is patronizing to suggest that if other people don't agree with you that they are "lying" and "making nice."


You've made statements twice in this thread that you then try to back away from.  No worries,  life is complicated.   We all do that from time to time.

I disagree, if passing was subjective it wouldn't be an issue.  I brought art up to make a point, you can't distort my example to use it on your side then say I brought it up.  I'm not shutting it down, there is a difference in making art for fun and trying to sell art for say walmart or target ads or something.   Passing, if being seen as the gender to wish to be seen as.  If your saying they pass, why can't they roll into a hick town to pick up a guy? By your account they look female, you'd get someone shot with your ideological way of approaching it.   Once again, i will repeat for the last time I am not saying if someone disagrees with me that they are playing nice I'm merely stating that it does occur in these threads at times. 

I've made no statements I wish to withdraw from, I stand by everything I've said.

I'll also do you a favor, since you keep responding without reading anything I'm saying.

====================================================

If I've offended you, just say so don't ignore everything I say while trying to claim you have some sort of point.  You're picking and choosing things i say, stretching them out of context and putting words in my mouth.  I understand people get their feelings hurt and can't think rationally so I'll forgive you, just take a break for the night we can continue tomorrow.

====================================================

I don't see anything wrong in anyone posting pictures of themselves, it's wonderful seeing the incredible changes that hrt can produce, but of course, at the end of the day, it's out in the real world that counts.  But everyone knows that, I think it's quite patronizing to assume that guys and girls posting pictures aren't aware of this.  Why can't we be happy for them?

Also, it is damn important in society to be seen as either a woman or a man, whether we like it or not. There are those who are very comfortable being gender benders, and more power to them, but most people are not like that. If you want to make it in mainstream society, eg: work in conventional places , go where you please without fear of harassment or exclusion, well you've got to try everything possible to pass as your target gender, in appearance, dress, voice and mannerisms. End of story. 

Quote from: mixie on January 25, 2012, 12:50:51 AM

It's a perfect example.  What is constructive criticism and what is an opinion.  My full stop on someone not passing is facial hair.  If I see facial hair obviously they don't pass.  But I've seen a few people on here with mustaches. If you don't know that women do sometimes have mustaches then you are really unaware.

Aww. * girl with facial hair* But I get called Ma'am and Lady quite a bit now.

One thing people don't mention is passing is a lot of trial and error too. I highly doubt anyone was totally in the closet and one day walk into the world 100% passing. It took me several years of living full time to really get my confidence up and "find my groove". I don't see that thread (that I would never post in myself) as being any more 'dangerous' than someone going to the mall to test their pass-ability. Passing IMHO doesn't have a whole lot to do with your looks, it comes from within.

Quote from: Stephe on January 23, 2012, 10:07:08 PM
Ditto on that Sister. I've been called a man on this forum many more times in 6 months than I have in RL in the last 5 years.

that means NOTHING.

if i see someone clothing theirselves as woman, will i call them sir or ma'am?

ma'am ofcourse, im not an ->-bleeped-<-, i can see that this person is transgender and i dont want to make HER feel bad.

BUT if she'd ask me.. do you think i look like an average woman? i'd say no. i might be an ->-bleeped-<- then but she wanted to hear the truth so i wouldn't lie to her.

Haven is "unfortunately" correct- Passing is not about subjectivity. It can be to an extent, but on the overall, visual Passing is about facial symmetry, not looking pretty or resembling a female celebrity with male features.
There are a lot of trannies that look very pretty and even beautiful and yet is clockable because of their facial features, no matter how much the people that want to boost transsexual self esteem(Bless them) wishes that such is not the case. But, it is.

Outdraft:

QuoteFacial Feminization Surgery (FFS) and
Male and Female Faces
There are basic differences between male and female faces, but the degree of masculinity or femininity varies. Females have a more pointed chin and less nasal prominence, for example. The forehead differs in the areas of the brows and the mid forehead, and the skull's shape affects the drape and contour of the skin. No particular feature makes a face look more male or female. Instead, it is the number of masculine or feminine features that characterizes the face. Below are differences between male and female faces to help guide those exploring facial feminization.

    Overall Shape
    An attractive female face tends to be heart shaped. It has rounded corners from the hairline down to a single point at the chin. Male faces have a more square appearance and an "M" shaped hairline coming down to a wide, square cornered jaw at the bottom. The lower third of the male face is usually longer because of a long top lip and tall chin. In profile, the female face tends to be flat while the male forehead slopes backwards, with the lower half of the face protruding forward.
    Hairline
    The male hairline is usually higher than the female's and tends to have an "M" shape that recedes at the temples.
    Forehead
    This is one of the more apparent gender markers. The bone ridge running across the forehead above the eyes, known as brow bossing, is more pronounced in males. Females have almost no discernable brow bossing because their foreheads are more rounded with a fairly flat front. In profile, female foreheads are more vertical instead of backward sloping.
    Eyebrows
    Male eyebrows are fairly straight and thick and sit on or just under the orbital rims. Female eyebrows generally sit higher and are more arched.
    Nose
    The female nose is smaller, shorter. It has a narrower bridge and nostrils, often has a more concave profile, and tends to be blunter at the tip. Also it has a greater angulation between the lip and the tip of the nose (points upwards more).
    Cheeks
    Female cheeks tend to be fuller and more rounded, and cheekbones are a little higher and further forward. Men often have hollow cheeks, because of flatter cheekbones and their tendency to carry less fat.
    Lips
    The distance between the nose's base and lip's top is usually longer in males When a female mouth is relaxed and slightly open, it usually shows a bit of her top teeth, which lends a youthful appearance to the face. The area between the top lip and nose often has a more backward slope in females.
    Chin
    Female chins are rounded. Male chins are wider, have a flat base and have two corners that form a square shape. Male chins are taller and heavier and are more likely to have a vertical cleft in the middle.
    Jaw
    The male jawbone is usually heavier built and tends to be wider, because the muscles attached to the corners of the jawbone are much bigger. Female jaw lines run in a gentle curve from the earlobe to the chin. In males it tends to drop down straight from the ear and then turn at a sharp angle towards the chin giving a square appearance.
    Adam's Apple
    The Adam's apple is usually visible and very prominent in males, but rarely visible in females.
    Eyes
    The eyes in a woman appear larger. This is in part because of the shape of the bony rim above and the forehead, and partly because of the cheek bones. The combination of bone shapes create relatively larger eyes which is considered both feminine and attractive.

http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html

For instace;
Difference between Male and Female Skull-features:


I would like to post more, but as for this post, I believe this will do.
Yes, I know there are "Loads of females that look like males" but to put it bluntly, those females are- no matter how rude it may sound- irrelevant, as they are not the majority but the minority, for the reason that if male looking females had been the majority, so called traditional masculine features would be interpreted as female.

Quote from: Zarania on January 25, 2012, 03:14:33 AM
that means NOTHING.

if i see someone clothing theirselves as woman, will i call them sir or ma'am?

ma'am ofcourse, im not an ->-bleeped-<-, i can see that this person is transgender and i dont want to make HER feel bad.

What I'm talking about is there are people here who use this as a tool to attack people they don't agree with. I'm not asking ANYONE if I'm a woman, I am and don't need anyone to validate it. But I do find I get the MOST abuse and nasty comments from GLBT people both in RL and online.  YMMV on this.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 25, 2012, 08:56:52 AM
Haven is "unfortunately" correct- Passing is not about subjectivity. It can be to an extent, but on the overall, visual Passing is about facial symmetry, not looking pretty or resembling a female celebrity with male features.
There are a lot of trannies that look very pretty and even beautiful and yet is clockable because of their facial features, no matter how much the people that want to boost transsexual self esteem(Bless them) wishes that such is not the case. But, it is.

Outdraft: http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html

For instace;

I would like to post more, but as for this post, I believe this will do.

Thanks for posting this. To me on casual inspection (and unless I really study them after being pointed to the differences) I see ZERO difference in the left and right pictures. A trans person has learned to key in on the VERY minor differences and obsess on them. The main difference I see is eye brow shape, not the bone but the hair part. Some brow waxing/shaping and a little makeup and any of those shots would look more feminine than the difference in "structure". When you're walking around in the mall NO ONE is going to study your brow bone or the shape of your eye sockets. If you walk like a woman, carry yourself like a woman and for the most part resemble a woman, people are gonna "see woman" and go on with their own business. 

What is going on is many trans people are so self concious they believe everyone studies them looking for their flaws. Trust me you just aren't that important to other people! Just look reasonable for your gender and people won't give you a second look. All this talk looks like a sales pitch for doing mega amounts of plastic surgery....

Quote from: Stephe on January 25, 2012, 09:37:10 AM
Thanks for posting this.

Your are welcome.

QuoteTo me on casual inspection (and unless I really study them after being pointed to the differences) I see ZERO difference in the left and right pictures. A trans person has learned to key in on the VERY minor differences and obsess on them. The main difference I see is eye brow shape, not the bone but the hair part. Some brow waxing/shaping and a little makeup and any of those shots would look more feminine than the difference in "structure".

Depends very much. Although, I am confident that you on the other hand do see a very clear difference between the below-pic and the upper-pic- That is, the Male face and the female face. 

QuoteWhen you're walking around in the mall NO ONE is going to study your brow bone or the shape of your eye sockets. If you walk like a woman, carry yourself like a woman and for the most part resemble a woman, people are gonna "see woman" and go on with their own business.

If that is true, then why are MTF's on this very board being harassed in their everyday life, sometimes to the point of suicide, because of their looks, no matter how natural looks and womanly manners they have?

The following question is not meant as provocation but asked with respect, however it is an important and very relevant question for the subject: If confidence and "female manners" alone is all that is needed for passing, then why did you feel the need to have a Rhinoplasty?

QuoteWhat is going on is many trans people are so self concious they believe everyone studies them looking for their flaws. Trust me you just aren't that important to other people! Just look reasonable for your gender and people won't give you a second look.

On the other hand, many transpeople are very self concious because many trans people are very often clocked. It is really not any more weird than people with Down's being self aware about that, too, and no matter how the person with Downäs may feel like everyone else, people in their surround can see that the person is a 'Mongoloid'(As they were called earlier).
Sometimes it is also the other way around; That even if the MTF is totally oblivious about her looks, the people in her surrounding, on the other hand, may not be, no matter how passable the MTF consider herself to be.

QuoteAll this talk looks like a sales pitch for doing mega amounts of plastic surgery....

A lot of people on this board would strongly disagree with that and many would probably even find the statement outrageous and directly insulting.
Thanks to Facial Feminisation Surgeries, people that earlier on was denied transition only because of their masculine looks alone, or, transitioned but was constantly taunted because of their male looks and forced to live in the shadows of Society, would have been stuck with that fate for the rest of their life without being able to do a darn thing about it.



Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that a lot with a successfull transition have to do with attitude and just being yourself and ignoring what other peopole think, and I also agree that sometimes Plastic Surgery is totally unecessary, but I totally disagree that all that it takes to pass is carying oneslf as a woman and you will automatically be passable.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 25, 2012, 08:56:52 AM
Haven is "unfortunately" correct- Passing is not about subjectivity. It can be to an extent, but on the overall, visual Passing is about facial symmetry, not looking pretty or resembling a female celebrity with male features.
There are a lot of trannies that look very pretty and even beautiful and yet is clockable because of their facial features, no matter how much the people that want to boost transsexual self esteem(Bless them) wishes that such is not the case. But, it is.

Outdraft: http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html

For instace;
Difference between Male and Female Skull-features:


I would like to post more, but as for this post, I believe this will do.
Yes, I know there are "Loads of females that look like males" but to put it bluntly, those females are- no matter how rude it may sound- irrelevant, as they are not the majority but the minority, for the reason that if male looking females had been the majority, so called traditional masculine features would be interpreted as female.

Um sorry.  But NO.  They are the ones that you are going to compare yourselves to.   You will not usually look like an extraordinarily feminine woman unless you happened to get lucky.

Most of you on here look like women with masculine features.   Are you delusionally suggesting that I compare you to say  Catherine Zeta Jones when in reality you aren't going to get past Alexandra Paul?

How exactly are you going to "Pass" with that smaller skull and different facial features unless you have surgery.  Some use HRT with amazing results.  But at the end of the day if you ask me to find the masculine features I am going to be able to find them because hello logic  "your body and face developed as a male"  You can't undo that all the way.

This is why I think it is so important to have young transgendered kids given hormone blockers.


So do you want people to say the truth which is everyone has a masculine feature that can be identified?   Well this is a transgendered website.  Of course you are going to find it.


I don't compare people to others.  I look at the face and say "If I saw this face would I immediately say transgendered"  If I wouldn't I'll say pass.  That is all I'm going by.

To say that masculine looking women are irrelevant boggles my mind.   Very few transgendered women are going to pass for very feminine looking women without major amounts of plastic surgery.   That doesn't mean they don't look like women.

My mind is completely confused by your post.  I can't understand why you think that masculine looking women are irrelevant when that is precisely what most transgendered women look like?