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How Bradley Manning’s fate will be decided

Started by SandraJane, January 22, 2012, 11:31:09 AM

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Annah

Quote from: pebbles on January 23, 2012, 06:58:58 AM
They didn't do anything wrong they just showed how vicious the US action aboard is with the wholesale slaughter of innocent bystanders... Whitch everybody else in the entire world already knows Except for those inside the US for some idiotic reason.

The label traitor is simply an excuse to hurt the one who showed you the mirror and made you look at yourself. Retreating back behind false and willfully ignorent notions of National pride against the "Others"

Wake up and ACCEPT what you are, Tell me yourself are you a nation of murderers, supported by complicit accomplices. Or a league of murderers supported by a nation of idiots who just don't know any better.

If your won't look yourself then perhaps the only way the pepole of the US will ever learn of the atrocities they commit daily are if they themselves brutally subjugated and tortured so they can see the horrors they endorse and commit first hand.

In whitch case the Theocratic bigoted state your gradually decaying into is a well earned end.

wow....

...slowly......backs.....away...........
  •  

Cindy


Sorry I did not mean to misgender. In the media reports I saw (in Australia) TG wasn't mentioned. It was implied that he/she was a gay guy.

The problem with all these cases is that the internal investigation will find the lowest cracking point and not the highest person responsible. They have found a very easy nut to crack. Totally disposable, unredeemable, a perfect fall person.

I do feel sorry for her.

She will have a hell of a life in prison. And no one will care.

What is it with taking responsibility for people in your charge?

If someone in my work sends out the wrong results, I'm to blame for not checking. OK I live with that.

If someone falsifies results and sends them out, I'm to blame for not checking, not understanding the ramifications. OK I live with that.

If someone access data from one of my databases and sells/gives it to a journalist, I'm to blame for not making sure the proper procedures were not in place. OK I live with that. I will (probably) fire the individual and maybe take legal proceedings but I can assure you of one thing, no matter how high I am in the company; I will be held responsible for the action of my staff.

And guess what? when I signed the form for being a boss, I knew that, and I live with it.

It's a simple concept. You are responsible for people in your command.

Unless you can prove total disregard for orders, SOP, inability to be trained, then it is your fault. If you knew the person was incapable of doing their job, then you are responsible for placing an incompetent person in a position that you are responsible for. 

Is this why a country may recruit low level spies? because they know the command structure is crap? When the command structure is strong you have to carefully build a dedicated and intelligent person into a long term role in order for them to spy when they have passed all those checks.

I am in no way judging right from wrong.

In my discussion that is irrelevant.

Why have we/you ended up taking a a person who could be best described as very fragile physically,  emotionally and psychologically into a position where they could access such an enormous amount of data, release it, and not know about it.

As far as I can tell it became apparent that the data had been leaked only when wikileaks did so.

Is there any evidence that the information contributed to anything except total and complete embarrassment of the people who employed this soldier?

I'm not in any way condoning what was done by Manning, but I am astonished how a very junior person is being held responsible for the whole affair.

I would suggest that a professional interrogator could get this person to confess to being one of Santa's elves, while their coffee cooled. 

Before they had finished their coffee they would have  so broken her so that she would confess to anything.  Then according to what I read they kept her in solitary custody without access to defence lawyers for a period of time that I do not recall, but it wasn't 24 hours. I think it was weeks. Must have been character building.

Again, I do not condone in anyway what Manning did (or may have done), but I have great reservations that justice, in this case,  is to bury a living corpse.

JMO
Cindy James
  •  

Rebekah with a K-A-H

Quote from: SandraJane on January 23, 2012, 12:19:37 PM
Interesting point, this was not a case of misgendering but of using the name in the article as written.

Heh, yeah.  It's actually mind-boggling how little press there's been about how the entire world is misgendering her.  I mean, I'm expecting dumbass media outlets to do that, because that's their modus operandi, but even Wikipedia has fallen prey to the trap of following all of the credible news outlets because even the credible, normally respectful sources have their heads stuck in the mud about it.
  •  

tekla

This, that, and a few minor technicalities.

I've never worried too much about it, knowing he's going to military court and the presumption in military court is that you are guilty, and since he is guilty they are going to have no problem finding him as such locking him up and tossing the key for a few decades.  And military prisons are not like regular prisons, they suck on a whole 'nother level.

Treason as defined in the Constitution: "levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."  The Constitution further gives Congress - and Congress alone - the power to declare war.  Currently, there is no such declaration, hence no war, hence no treason.  Nor is he being charged with treason.  So he's not really a traitor in any legal sense.

The side-bar about the Revolutionary War (aside from the fact that there are a lot of Brits in here who would consider it as such) is that actions at the time are not necessarily seen that way in historical perspective.  Also note, there was a war on, they actually caused the war, started the war, and pursued the war, which is exactly what treason is.

His case is fairly unique, (though Danial Elsberg's is similar), in that usually giving away classified documents is done as part of an espionage deal.  There is no espionage going on here (and if there was, unless it was huge - and it really wasn't - he would be traded back because that's how we did it back in the day with the USSR), there was no foreign country, or foreign power he was supplying.  He released this stuff to the citizens of the United States (and everyone else).  And, exactly like Elsberg, those documents paint a picture of widespread lying - deceit is the word your looking for - and cover-ups on the part of our government when it comes to dealing with military adventures (ours and others) beyond our borders. 

And, let me say a kind word about espionage.  Espionage keeps the peace.  Espionage is powerful tool in maintaining the peace.  Electronic and space-based surveillance by both the US and USSR, as well as more traditional means (pilfering documents), probably averted several wars that could have turned nuclear.  All of  the Poppa Reagan fan club out there who get all warm and runny at the mere mention of his sainted name should well remember that he said: Trust, but verify.  Espionage is how you verify.  The other side too.  Both sides know that, and despite attempting to keep everything a secret from the other side (and like the present case, most MOST of what is classified is non-information) you actually have to kind-of let them get the stuff they really need.  The information that makes them feel more secure.  If you want to really go down the rabbit-hole, the closest thing to Alice-In-Wonderland we have is the world of counterespionage during the Cold War, who was getting what and how, very trippy. One person who was heavily involved called it 'A Wilderness of Mirrors."  I mean we 'let stuff out' from time to time for various reasons, and such things are very obscure to source.

So, I reserve the right to look through this again and again and wonder if BM was set up.  Why this information?  Who did this release benefit?  Who did it hurt?  Is he just a likely fall guy, a patsy, a stooge being manipulated by people much more cunning and smarter (and cold blooded to say the least) than he is/was?  And that's often stuff you don't know till years down the road.  If ever.  And preferably, never.

But given some of the real master spies of the Cold War era, Bradley Manning does not seem to fit the profile.  Danial Elsberg was a doctor doing pentagon contract research at a top grade contractor, that's how he had access, how does a PFC get it?  So I'm still curious as to how some PFC has all that stuff with so little supervision - unless there is just so much, the sheer volume of it is now, at long last, totally unmanageable.  I'll accept that, but that opens a whole new, big, huge problem.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 24, 2012, 09:57:17 AM
This, that, and a few minor technicalities.

I've never worried too much about it, knowing he's going to military court and the presumption in military court is that you are guilty, and since he is guilty they are going to have no problem finding him as such locking him up and tossing the key for a few decades.  And military prisons are not like regular prisons, they suck on a whole 'nother level.

Treason as defined in the Constitution: "levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."  The Constitution further gives Congress - and Congress alone - the power to declare war.  Currently, there is no such declaration, hence no war, hence no treason.  Nor is he being charged with treason.  So he's not really a traitor in any legal sense.

Not even close.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice specifically states,

... the accused must be presumed to be innocent until his guilt is established by legal and competent evidence beyond reasonable doubt. 851. Art 51. (c). (1)

Furthermore, the US Supreme Court, going all the way back the The Prize Cases in 1862, has ruled a state a war can exist without a formal declaration of war.  This sort of sophistry will not help Manning's case one bit.

Manning's addition problems regarding espionage and spying are found in 906. Art 106 and 906a. .Art 106a
  •  

tekla

He's guilty of however many counts that it is of release of confidential documents, nothing more, he's not a spy in any national security sense, because he's not working for any foreign government.  Those charges will be enough to hold him forever and a day.  And I don't care what they say, the presumption in most military courts is for guilt or else it wouldn't have made it that far, it would have been dealt with on an administrative level, if not made to go away altogether.  They've got him dead to rights.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

SandraJane

Quote from: tekla on January 24, 2012, 09:57:17 AM
This, that, and a few minor technicalities.

I've never worried too much about it, knowing he's going to military court and the presumption in military court is that you are guilty, and since he is guilty they are going to have no problem finding him as such locking him up and tossing the key for a few decades.  And military prisons are not like regular prisons, they suck on a whole 'nother level.

Treason as defined in the Constitution: "levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."  The Constitution further gives Congress - and Congress alone - the power to declare war.  Currently, there is no such declaration, hence no war, hence no treason.  Nor is he being charged with treason.  So he's not really a traitor in any legal sense.

The side-bar about the Revolutionary War (aside from the fact that there are a lot of Brits in here who would consider it as such) is that actions at the time are not necessarily seen that way in historical perspective.  Also note, there was a war on, they actually caused the war, started the war, and pursued the war, which is exactly what treason is.

His case is fairly unique, (though Danial Elsberg's is similar), in that usually giving away classified documents is done as part of an espionage deal.  There is no espionage going on here (and if there was, unless it was huge - and it really wasn't - he would be traded back because that's how we did it back in the day with the USSR), there was no foreign country, or foreign power he was supplying.  He released this stuff to the citizens of the United States (and everyone else).  And, exactly like Elsberg, those documents paint a picture of widespread lying - deceit is the word your looking for - and cover-ups on the part of our government when it comes to dealing with military adventures (ours and others) beyond our borders. 

And, let me say a kind word about espionage.  Espionage keeps the peace.  Espionage is powerful tool in maintaining the peace.  Electronic and space-based surveillance by both the US and USSR, as well as more traditional means (pilfering documents), probably averted several wars that could have turned nuclear.  All of  the Poppa Reagan fan club out there who get all warm and runny at the mere mention of his sainted name should well remember that he said: Trust, but verify.  Espionage is how you verify.  The other side too.  Both sides know that, and despite attempting to keep everything a secret from the other side (and like the present case, most MOST of what is classified is non-information) you actually have to kind-of let them get the stuff they really need.  The information that makes them feel more secure.  If you want to really go down the rabbit-hole, the closest thing to Alice-In-Wonderland we have is the world of counterespionage during the Cold War, who was getting what and how, very trippy. One person who was heavily involved called it 'A Wilderness of Mirrors."  I mean we 'let stuff out' from time to time for various reasons, and such things are very obscure to source.

So, I reserve the right to look through this again and again and wonder if BM was set up.  Why this information?  Who did this release benefit?  Who did it hurt?  Is he just a likely fall guy, a patsy, a stooge being manipulated by people much more cunning and smarter (and cold blooded to say the least) than he is/was?  And that's often stuff you don't know till years down the road.  If ever.  And preferably, never.

But given some of the real master spies of the Cold War era, Bradley Manning does not seem to fit the profile.  Danial Elsberg was a doctor doing pentagon contract research at a top grade contractor, that's how he had access, how does a PFC get it?  So I'm still curious as to how some PFC has all that stuff with so little supervision - unless there is just so much, the sheer volume of it is now, at long last, totally unmanageable.  I'll accept that, but that opens a whole new, big, huge problem.

Note- 715 words used.

brev·i·ty

noun
1.
shortness of time or duration; briefness: the brevity of human life.
2.
the quality of expressing much in few words; terseness: Brevity is the soul of wit.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brevity

...do you think you could have said it in 200 words or less?   ???
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 24, 2012, 11:31:31 PM
He's guilty of however many counts that it is of release of confidential documents, nothing more, he's not a spy in any national security sense, because he's not working for any foreign government.  Those charges will be enough to hold him forever and a day.  And I don't care what they say, the presumption in most military courts is for guilt or else it wouldn't have made it that far, it would have been dealt with on an administrative level, if not made to go away altogether.  They've got him dead to rights.

106a. (a)

    (1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, any thing described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns

        (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack,

        (B) war plans,

        (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or

        (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.


(Emphasis mine)

Did Manning have reason to believe the encrypted and classified materials he leaked would injure the United States?
  •  

Cindy

How did this person, low in the chain, to say the least, know what information to release.

  •  

pebbles

Quote from: Annah on January 24, 2012, 01:31:26 AM
wow.... ...slowly......backs.....away...........
Sure I'm crazy whatever any excuse to dismiss what I'm saying.

Guantanimo defense lawyers are begin physically and legally intimidated under the "Espionage act" for potentially revealing acts of torture commited against detainees.
http://spy.wareremoval.com/3087/guantanamo-defense-lawyers-being-investigated-over-cia-photos/

John Kiriakou The man who orignally revealed to the world that the USA was waterboarding Detainees, now finds himself arrested accused of espionage against the United states.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ex-spy-kiriakou-accused-in-cia-leaks-played-key-role-in-public-debate-over-waterboarding/2012/01/24/gIQA2mXROQ_story.html

Obama bends over backwards to protect and continue crimes and abuse from the bush era. Yet anyone who actually reveals these crimes is brutally punished.

Compair and contrast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Wuterich

Marine staff seargent he tells his men to "shoot everyone and ask questions later" after a marine died under his command as they march into Haditha Iraq. 24 civilian men women and children are killed.

If found guilty of this psychopathic war crime he stands to be imprisoned for 3 months during his incarceration he will be subject to a 2/3rds pay cut and demoted back to the rank of private.

And your all complicit in this I doubt any of you knew because your unwilling to know.
Bradley Manning would have been better off commiting war crimes and wholesale murdering civilians rather than reporting them. Perhaps you would be calling him/her a heroic patriot then.
  •  

Devlyn

OK, if you're an American, the line forms here to have Pebbles tell each of us whether we fall in the "murderer" or "idiot" camp.
  •  

tekla

do you think you could have said it in 200 words or less

Brevity is the soul of the idiocy that is exacerbating a lot of our current problems with a sound-bite political culture and bumper sticker politics. 

An intentionally ignorant democracy doesn't work.  Plenty of proof of that these days.


FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

SandraJane

Quote from: tekla on January 25, 2012, 09:59:50 AM
do you think you could have said it in 200 words or less

Brevity is the soul of the idiocy that is exacerbating a lot of our current problems with a sound-bite political culture and bumper sticker politics. 

An intentionally ignorant democracy doesn't work.  Plenty of proof of that these days.

I guess that means no! :laugh:
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 25, 2012, 09:59:50 AM
do you think you could have said it in 200 words or less

Brevity is the soul of the idiocy that is exacerbating a lot of our current problems with a sound-bite political culture and bumper sticker politics. 

An intentionally ignorant democracy doesn't work.  Plenty of proof of that these days.

Those raised on television, like Sesame Street and network news, have a 30 second attention span.
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: pebbles on January 25, 2012, 04:16:32 AM
Sure I'm crazy whatever any excuse to dismiss what I'm saying....

John Kiriakou The man who originally revealed to the world that the USA was waterboarding Detainees, now finds himself arrested accused of espionage against the United states....

Waterboarding saves lives.  Leaking jeopardizes them.
  •  

Rebekah with a K-A-H

Literal lol @ consistent misgendering.

So much for respect for identity, huh?  I guess it's only ok if the person isn't around to complain.
  •  

Annah

Quote from: pebbles on January 25, 2012, 04:16:32 AM
Perhaps you would be calling him/her a heroic patriot then.

Actually, during this point in time, I prefer to call Bradley Manning a psychopath and a deeply troubled person.

He threatened his step mother with a butcher's knife, lived in a truck because all of his family members were afraid of him, numerous accounts of insubordination (had no idea how to follow orders and screamed at his commanding officers, had numerous encounters with various military mental health counselors, and punched a female soldier in the face.

He did brief internet sessions with a gender counselor and the gender counselor doubted he is transgender. The Therapist stated that he has many other mental health issues going on right now that makes it impossible to tell if he is transgender or if this is another one of his phases or a reaction to his inability to cope with people around him or an attempt of getting attention (his previous boyfriends all left him because of his inability to cope with people and his strong desire for unhealthy attention)....this is probably why I am still referring him to the male gender. I think he is at the mental state where he doesn't know what he wants.

  •  

mixie

Quote from: pebbles on January 25, 2012, 04:16:32 AM

And your all complicit in this I doubt any of you knew because your unwilling to know.
Bradley Manning would have been better off commiting war crimes and wholesale murdering civilians rather than reporting them. Perhaps you would be calling him/her a heroic patriot then.

"you're all complicit"  "you're unwilling to know"   If you don't know how to use a contraction, it's best to spell out "you are."

  •  

SandraJane

Note- Whether it is about brevity in expression, or grammar, let us be tolerant of each other...please! :)

Thank You,

SJ


  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) All I can say about Bradley, is I pity the poor sod, life for her now in the land of the 'patriot' [America] is going to be sheer hell whether in prison or out of it...Even if the charges are trumped up, mud sticks...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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