Ok I have a date with Dr. Z, I already gave him my $1000 deposit and everything is set for April.  Everything I've seen from him has impressed me and I have been super excited.  Buuutttt I was just cruising around here and I see this lawsuit, wrongful death?!?! Holy guacamole! I've now just become terrified.  Then I read about the consultation thread where Dr. Z sounded kinda like a douche and was taking phone calls, blah blah blah, and I'm totally rethinking this thing!!

Sooo I think I'm going to go ahead and start consultations with some other Doctors.  I mean a girl died, Dr. Z can't just forget about that... he can't be in the greatest mindset right?  I don't know.

Or do you think his facilities will be safer? 

Crap, what do ya'll think about Dr. Z?

What other Docs do you suggest?  I think im going to consult with Spiegel.

Try these two;

Barry Eppley, MD, DMD    Indianapolis, IN     http://www.eppleyplasticsurgery.com/  (he does FFS, just doesn't have an FFS page)

Jeffrey Weinzweig, MD     Chicago, IL            http://www.femmesurgery.com/index.html

Both are Craniofacial Surgeons (Bone) like Ousterhaut and Spiegel. Zukowski is not.

Quote from: rylielove on January 23, 2012, 08:22:40 PM
Ok I have a date with Dr. Z, I already gave him my $1000 deposit and everything is set for April.  Everything I've seen from him has impressed me and I have been super excited.  Buuutttt I was just cruising around here and I see this lawsuit, wrongful death?!?! Holy guacamole! I've now just become terrified.  Then I read about the consultation thread where Dr. Z sounded kinda like a douche and was taking phone calls, blah blah blah, and I'm totally rethinking this thing!!

Sooo I think I'm going to go ahead and start consultations with some other Doctors.  I mean a girl died, Dr. Z can't just forget about that... he can't be in the greatest mindset right?  I don't know.

Or do you think his facilities will be safer? 

Crap, what do ya'll think about Dr. Z?

What other Docs do you suggest?  I think im going to consult with Spiegel.

I have no idea about this doc but personally I would NEVER EVER go under general anesthesia outside of a hospital.

It's also my personal opinion a LOT of people do way more FFS than they could probably get away with. Many of the before and after shots all I notice is -the- big problem being fixed, be it their nose or the chin. Also static picture don't convey what they look like animated in real like. Some friends who have had extensive plastic surgery look awesome in a picture, in real life they look weird/wooden/plastic. Not all people end up that way but some do. And while you will hear a lot of "I had no problems", there are risks with each procedure from facial paralysis to as you noted, even death. The longer you are on the table, the higher the risks and the longer your recovery.

You get one shot at this stuff, REALLY think about this carefully. At one point I was going to do more than just my nose but I decided, I'm done. I look good enough and am NOT going to pick out every detail that is "wrong".

Quote from: Stephe on January 24, 2012, 04:00:53 AM
I have no idea about this doc but personally I would NEVER EVER go under general anesthesia outside of a hospital.

Where are you from?  Around here in NE TN (Tri-Cities [race fans may recognize Bristol] middle of nowhere basically), there is very little speciality surgery done in a hospital setting.  We have speciality clinics for each type of surgery.  Not all require anesthesia of course. 

When our son had to have his tonsils out year before last it was done at a certified surgical center and NOT a hospital and that was his pediatrician's specific recommendation of place.

My wife's mother and two of her aunts had knee surgery at a specialized location too.

Surgery wise thinking back the only ones I can think of done in a hospital have been to people already admitted via the ER.

These locations are "supposed" to be certified as safe and Dr. Z does list has as.  All of the ones we or someone I know uses are also inspected and certified.

Further Dr. Z actually offers potential clients the opportunity to demand a full hospital (albeit at a higher cost).

Quote from: rylielove on January 23, 2012, 08:22:40 PM
Ok I have a date with Dr. Z, I already gave him my $1000 deposit and everything is set for April.  Everything I've seen from him has impressed me and I have been super excited.  Buuutttt I was just cruising around here and I see this lawsuit, wrongful death?!?! Holy guacamole! I've now just become terrified.  Then I read about the consultation thread where Dr. Z sounded kinda like a douche and was taking phone calls, blah blah blah, and I'm totally rethinking this thing!!

Sooo I think I'm going to go ahead and start consultations with some other Doctors.  I mean a girl died, Dr. Z can't just forget about that... he can't be in the greatest mindset right?  I don't know.

Or do you think his facilities will be safer? 

Crap, what do ya'll think about Dr. Z?

What other Docs do you suggest?  I think im going to consult with Spiegel.

At this point in time all of the facts point to an anesthesia complication.  It is terribly tragic for anyone to die, especially someone in a community as small as our, but anesthesia has risks.  That has nothing to do with Dr. Z's skills as a surgeon in the OR at all.  He didn't slip and cut a major artery.

If you are truly concerned about the safety of his surgical center ask him to move it to a hospital (or at least ask how much more $ it will be).

In terms of the complains of how long you are under anesthesia some have tossed around please realize that a mostly complete FFS is going to take a long time.  From what I am seeing on the FFS mailing lists even Dr. O uses more than the 9 hours that is quoted as excessive.  Of course  have no ideal how long I was under, but I do know that I was in that building for around 17 hours all told, but I did take a bit over 2 hours to full wake up and there is always TONS of before and after paperwork.

I had my surgery on 12/29/2011.  I have a thread here on Susan's documenting pretty much everything I could think of (I get long winded and carried away when bored and recovery is BORING).

Based on the results I had, I would have no problems choosing Dr. Z again.  And I would definitely use his surgery center again without hesitation.  As I said surgery centers are the NORM around here and if anything the anesthesiologist will be even MORE careful because of this.

As far as personality goes you either can deal with him or you can't.  I never felt he gave me anything less than his full attention, but he does try to talk first and then let you ask.  When I was in his office to get my fat grafts I actually heard him chewing out his staff LOUDLY and he was clearly pissed.  But as soon as he walked back into the room I was in I saw it all fall off him and I was the center of his attention again.  I wonder if that habit is developed because if he finishes his set speech your question may not be valid.  I'm sure he has seen that tons since he has done this quite a while.  He is VERY SELF ASSURED and to some people that seems aggressive.  If you have been able to deal with him so far then what makes you think he will change between now and then (you've already had a consult or you wouldn't have put down $1000).

I did have questions about certain things, but with everything but the cheek implants after he explained his reasoning I decided to trust the expert that does this for a living instead of a preconceived notion in my head.  For example when I was trying to reduce cost I asked about leaving my neck/chin/jaw alone.  He VERY strongly objected and said it would make my face disproportionate, but did quote a reduced fee for leaving it out.  After seeing his results I can't believe I even considered leaving it out.  Further when I decided on breast implants he suggested 700cc.  I felt that seemed large (and even posted a different thread here where people said it would be huge).  Guess what, now that they are in, they look GREAT on my frame.  Where I focused just on WOW that is big, he focused on shoulder, chest, ribcage sizing and now I have proportional breasts.

Many people may need little or no work done to pass.  But look at it as the 80/20 rule.  That last 20% quality is going to cost a LOT.  Maybe good makeup and training can be the 80% at 20% of the cost.  Just a rhino may be 85% at 40% of the cost.  The FFS doctors are shooting or high 90s% and so the cost is in the high 90s% too.

You may not NEED that last 10% or even any of the last 20%, but it is there for those who want it.  Many genetic women may not even hit 80%, but as a group we are generally overly paranoid.  To me while an 85% may have been good enough it was worth the money to shoot for a 95% for two reasons.

1: I am TALL and WIDE (I'm talking bone structure here - even when in shape I'm wide shouldered).  Because of those male markers I need as many female markers I can get.
2: The knowledge that I have a few percentage points better increases my confidence exponentially.  That extra 10% didn't mean I was 10% more confident it meant I was TWICE (100%) as confident.  And confidence is KING.  If you have enough confidence you can do anything you want.  We can pass on pure confidence alone. 

This forum is littered with pure confidence passing stories.  You probably have even heard a few that are non TG.  For example as a grad student I once walked out of a campus building with a huge pile of equipment.  ALL of it was blazoned with property of ETSU all over it.  I walked down the sidewalk right past a security booth and loaded it into my car.  Not a single person stopped me and asked what I was doing with all that gear.  Not even the guards with whom I made direct eye contact.

Quote from: Jeneva on January 24, 2012, 07:26:46 AM
Where are you from?  Around here in NE TN (Tri-Cities [race fans may recognize Bristol] middle of nowhere basically), there is very little speciality surgery done in a hospital setting.  We have speciality clinics for each type of surgery.  Not all require anesthesia of course. 

The places I am talking about and where I have had surgery are connected to a hospital. They might not be INSIDE the main building but are on the same campus, usually connected by a breezeway. It sounds like this death was caused by this "surgery center" being far away from a hospital, they had to call paramedics and took a while for them to arrive. By the time people could get there who could deal with the problem, it was too late.  Obviously no one is saying the Dr did anything wrong here.

As far as confidence increase from minor FFS, you really will never know what % you would have gained because you chose to "do it all". For all you know some simple FFS might have created the same level of self confidence.  I know it did for me. My surgeon also had a laundry list of things he suggested doing, I thought about what he said and decided only to do my nose and it was the right thing to do for me. He didn't argue or try to talk me into anything else. Being "balanced" is part of their skill and in my case the work they did made my nose balanced to the rest of my face, not by trying to balance my face to a new nose he created. He still wants to do my lips, I'm fine being a thin lipped woman I'm saving that money for hair removal etc.

And yes minor FFS will have a much lower time being on the table and faster recovery time, I was out doing things looking normal 7-10 days post op and at a much reduced cost. Someone low on funds might be able to afford minor FFS without a big loan requiring years to pay back, which will def increase ones quality of life. Also will have less time missed from work. And it's not like you can't go back and have more done later either if you aren't happy, but you can't undo any surgery that was done.

The point I'm trying to make is I see a large cheering section for these total makeover FFS from people who have had them and am trying to balance this POV from someone who had a minor correction made and ended up with the same type self confidence boost. I'm not saying either that some people might need more work than I did, but from the before and after shots I have seen many would look fine with a LOT less than they had done.

Quote from: rylielove on January 23, 2012, 08:22:40 PM
Ok I have a date with Dr. Z, I already gave him my $1000 deposit and everything is set for April.  Everything I've seen from him has impressed me and I have been super excited.  Buuutttt I was just cruising around here and I see this lawsuit, wrongful death?!?! Holy guacamole! I've now just become terrified.  Then I read about the consultation thread where Dr. Z sounded kinda like a douche and was taking phone calls, blah blah blah, and I'm totally rethinking this thing!!

Sooo I think I'm going to go ahead and start consultations with some other Doctors.  I mean a girl died, Dr. Z can't just forget about that... he can't be in the greatest mindset right?  I don't know.

Or do you think his facilities will be safer? 

Crap, what do ya'll think about Dr. Z?

What other Docs do you suggest?  I think im going to consult with Spiegel.

I was sent that link before my surgery by someone I guess trying to stop me from going with him but my mind was already set. I had a few phone consultations with him by that time. I had seen dozens of before and afters and was so impressed with him, his work, and his staff.

I'm 17 days post op and I am so happy I decided to go with him. He did an amazing job. Although it was a tough recovery I have no regrets. He met with me every single day after surgery to make sure I was okay. Their office called many times to check on me. There were several other patients in the same hotel where I was staying that I met up with.

Like stephe, I got just my nose done in 2007. But I wasn't satisfied. I still saw a male in the mirror and I'm glad I made the decision to have full ffs. I think it's the best investment I've made so far. And like Dr. Z says, it's a change for LIFE.

I'm not trying to persuade you to go with Dr. Z. Ultimately it's your decision. But I wanted to share MY experience with you in hopes that it'll help make you feel more comfortable if you decide to go with him. I had surgery on the 7th of this month. And had no complications. Remember, no surgeon is perfect or miracle worker. There are a lot of risks involved when going under the knife.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.

I am a "Z" girl.  Actually I am a PROUD "Z" girl!

I was following Dr. Zukowski for 10 years prior to coming out.  My brother was one of his main surgical techs and would bring home pictures of the work he had done and I was extremely impressed (and envious).  BTW: My brother assisted Dr. Z. in my surgery.

And now my step daughter, Christa, who also had her surgery with Dr. Z. works in the clinic as his electrologist.  And she is very happy with her results too.

Due to that, I have been to the clinic many, many times.  Not only as a patient, but also as an associate of those who worked there.  I have been on a first name basis with the doctor and his staff for many years.

Also, I have been on the float that the doctor has in the Chicago Gay Pride Parade in years past.

I have met many of his patients, and all seem to be more than happy with his work.

In that time I have had occasion to see him in a number of settings.  He is very gregarious and outspoken.  And to many that can be seen as being overbearing.  But also, I have had occasion to see that he demands the very highest standards from his team.  And he can be quite vocal when his standards aren't met.

He has spent over a million dollars to equip his surgical suite to hospital standards and to have it accredited annually.  He devotes his complete attention to every surgery he performs. 

Like Jen described, the confidence that one feels following this surgery is life changing.  From the time following my surgery when I finally started to go out, to this very day, almost five years later, I look at myself in every reflective surface I pass.  I have something now that I never had before in my life as a result of the surgery at Dr Z's clinic.  Pride.  Pride in myself and the way that I look.

I cannot speak to the terrible incident that happened for I only know the facts that were stated in the news articles.  But I personally feel that it was not due to any action or inaction on the doctor's part. 

FFS is major surgery and should be approached with serious thought.  General anesthesia is not to be taken lightly either, you have to be in the best of health to endure the rigors of surgery and post operative recovery. 

You must also have complete confidence in your surgeon.  You do not want to come away with any remorse or second thoughts.  So if you wish to have consultations with other doctors, please do.  Ultimately this is your decision to make.  You must make it with confidence.

But for me, if I had to do it all over again, I would unhesitatingly do exactly what I did before.  I would go to Dr. Z.

-Sandy

phew!  thats for all the responses i feel much better about Dr. Z now... i think it was just shock when i see death and dr. z in the same sentance, my anxiety started to build and of course next comes googling and reading as many forum posts as possible while ignoring the good things people say and focusing on the bad things.  focusing on his personality, which i never was bothered... and started to let it bother me after reading negative forum posts.  i was turning him into some evil rude dr who doesn't care about his patients, funny what a little fear and anxiety can do!

i'm glad you girls stepped forward and said the things you did, very much helpful!
i think for realzies i'm gonna stick with my Dr. Z April date (just in time for my birthday!!)

oh and if you girls who just finished with your surgery don't mind ~ what hotels did you stay at?  how long were you in Chicago?  I'm scheduled for 10 days... Did you use the nurse afterwards for cleaning and what not?  I have her scheduled for the fulltime only because i don't think my Mom wants those duties.  ummmmm ~ any other info you think would be helpful? (feel free to send in a PM, but since i just re-signed up i can't send them back or anything ~not sure why)

and one last thing ~ I'M EXCITED AGAIN (in contrast to being scared) YAY!

Quote from: rylielove on January 25, 2012, 01:10:36 PMoh and if you girls who just finished with your surgery don't mind ~ what hotels did you stay at?  how long were you in Chicago?  I'm scheduled for 10 days... Did you use the nurse afterwards for cleaning and what not?  I have her scheduled for the fulltime only because i don't think my Mom wants those duties.  ummmmm ~ any other info you think would be helpful?

I think most of his patients stay at the Staybridge Suites. I did. It's a very nice hotel. It has everything you need including it's own kitchen. It's a very welcoming and comfy place. Dr. Z recommends you stay in the area for at least 7 days so 10 days is good. I only used the nurse for the 3rd day when they take off the bandages and you finally get to shower, shampoo and condition your hair, and clean the incisions. I think it's best you use a nurse for as many hours as you can post surgery (preferably Lisa Lopez) because she has many years of experience and will help make your recovery more comfortable. She's super nice and friendly and will give you her 100% attention.

I don't know how much you're getting done but it was a tough recovery for me and I'm sure for everyone else so try to be prepared. It won't be easy but don't freak or stress out. Everything will be okay and Lisa will be there to help you with ANYTHING you need. So, will Dr. Z. I'm super excited for you. I wish you the best!

Quoteand one last thing ~ I'M EXCITED AGAIN (in contrast to being scared) YAY!

Like Dr. Z told me, "Be VERY excited..you'll turn out stunning"

Quote from: JenJen2011 on January 25, 2012, 01:48:36 PM

Like Dr. Z told me, "Be VERY excited..you'll turn out stunning"

sooo excited!

PS - Jen, your cool thanks for the help

Quote from: rylielove on January 25, 2012, 01:10:36 PM
phew!  thats for all the responses i feel much better about Dr. Z now... i think it was just shock when i see death and dr. z in the same sentance, my anxiety started to build and of course next comes googling and reading as many forum posts as possible while ignoring the good things people say and focusing on the bad things.  focusing on his personality, which i never was bothered... and started to let it bother me after reading negative forum posts.  i was turning him into some evil rude dr who doesn't care about his patients, funny what a little fear and anxiety can do!

i'm glad you girls stepped forward and said the things you did, very much helpful!
i think for realzies i'm gonna stick with my Dr. Z April date (just in time for my birthday!!)

oh and if you girls who just finished with your surgery don't mind ~ what hotels did you stay at?  how long were you in Chicago?  I'm scheduled for 10 days... Did you use the nurse afterwards for cleaning and what not?  I have her scheduled for the fulltime only because i don't think my Mom wants those duties.  ummmmm ~ any other info you think would be helpful? (feel free to send in a PM, but since i just re-signed up i can't send them back or anything ~not sure why)

and one last thing ~ I'M EXCITED AGAIN (in contrast to being scared) YAY!

My date was 12/29/2011.  I flew in 12/28/2011 and flew out 01/06/2012.  His corporate rate for the Staybridge is also like $20 cheaper than it shows online so don't panic.

The StayBridge has a rate deal with him that is $20 less than online and is the primary one.  The second best option is the Extended Stay nearby.  I used Extended stays a lot when I was running a software development training company because it was cheap, but the StayBridge is worth MORE than $20 extra.  The free breakfast and even dinner a lot of nights makes it a fair deal too.  The staff were ALL exceptionally polite and accepting and always used the correct pronouns.  Other than 1 night with some losers that had a bit too much free beer I think the gendering and acceptance was perfect.

I can also second the recommendation to have Lisa or one of her co-workers with you for a long as you can.  Lisa and Jennifer were BOTH excellent caregivers and know Dr. Z's protocols forward and backward.

Buy some britta water bottles and you don't have to lug around bottled water.  They have a filter in them and are VERY handy saving a trip to the grocery store in Chicago.
Lisa will ask you to buy a 5 slot 7 day medicine dispenser.  DO IT.  She will fill out ALL of your meds even if she is only there part of the time.
Bring or buy variety to eat.  I just packed a bunch of pudding since it was a huge box from Sam's Club.  It didn't weight too much and was fine.  After the second or third day I had to switch to something else because it was tearing my tummy up.

I may have some other random comments in the thread I linked above.

Dr. Z checked in on my in person EVERY day I was up there and has called several times here to make sure I am recovering ok (He did this morning actually).  As I said before even when he clearly had been thinking about other stuff I could see it drop off him when he walked into my room.

ya'll are awesome!

I was at the Staybridge as well and had Lisa for my caregiver.  She saved me from getting a concussion when I passed out by standing up too quickly.  Other than I felt like I'd been hit by a truck (and looked like I had) it was a good time.

Remember that it will take months for you to completely heal and have most of the swelling go away, so be patient and follow the doctors orders to the letter.  After all you'll be spending the amount of a new car on your face and you want to take as good care of it as you would a car.

Check out my blog for my experiences there.

-Sandy

F

i feel like the universe is trying to tell me something... everytime i get comfortable with surgery i hear about something bad grrrrrrrr

i prob shouldn't have come back to this forum, granted its a very nice forum but my anxiety can't deal with it (on a couple different levels)

Antibiotics are on his stock medicine list.  A claim that antibiotics were not prescribed is somewhat odd.  Unless they mean of course the antibiotic X vs Y wasn't prescribed.  I took 5 pills a day for 7 days.

Please remember that emotions get high in a potential trial situation and any statements should always be verified, preferably with court records.  The yahoo FFS list has banned anything but factual provable statements from verifiable documents for this very reason.  Is this other malpractice suit already filed that we can see the EXACT claims made?

In the end it is your own comfort level with the surgeon that matters no what I or anyone else says about him.  We could get 100 yeah and 100 nea and it is still up to you to decide.  Do also remember that "bad" reports surface more than good once since the ones with good results feel no need to say anything while the ones with bad will gladly share.

I am sorry this is causing you anxiety issues I also have severe anxiety issues and understand how fast it can spiral into the crippling zone.  Fortunately for me the only anxiety I suffered during the whole thing was will I "pass" the medical clearance or not.  And it was not severe enough to take anything.

Regardless of who does your FFS or IF you even have it, I wish you health and safety as you transition.  If you do have FFS with anyone let the forum know and they're will be several of us praying/sending light and love/etc. for you as you heal.

Oh, also..this friend of a friend of a friend told me that her cousin's brother's sister-in-law was left disfigured and paralyzed. Look, don't believe EVERYTHING you read and hear. Why? Because not everything is factual.

Listen Rylie..If you made your $1,000 deposit, it means you already had your mind set, right? It means your decision was made, right? You did your research and thought Dr. Z was the one for you, right? Ok then. Stop going to FFS forums and asking for opinions. Right now you should just be excited and start the countdown. This advice I'm giving you is advice that was given to me from someone I consider to be very special and a dear friend. By the way, the same thing that's happening here happened to not only me like I stated above, but also to the friend that gave me this advice. You will always come across people who will try to persuade you otherwise either because they believe their surgeon is better or have no life and want to make things up.

At least 3 of Dr. Z's patients have come forward and shared their "success stories" on this thread with you. And there are tons more.

I'll end this by saying, go with YOUR GUT feeling. While some people tried to bring me down, I went with MY GUT feeling and happy I did. Besides, why would I change my mind just because some anonymous person online is trying to? Go with your gut feeling Rylie, make your decision, and stay away from FFS forums.

Quote from: rylielove on January 26, 2012, 07:51:59 AM
F

i feel like the universe is trying to tell me something... everytime i get comfortable with surgery i hear about something bad grrrrrrrr

i prob shouldn't have come back to this forum, granted its a very nice forum but my anxiety can't deal with it (on a couple different levels)

You're going to hear from the cheerleaders for this and you also need to hear the reality of what CAN happen. You have to decide: is my face so male looking that no way on Gods green earth can I ever hope to pass, or have you exaggerated all these details to the point they became larger than they actually are to anyone but yourself. The more you have done at once, the more likely some part of it will go wrong. As with ANY surgery, you should do AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to fix whatever problem you are trying to fix.

All anyone is trying to point out hun is the risks are real and you have to be honest with yourself on what you really NEED. It's about balance and fixing the BIG problems, that includes your body, your voice, male hair patterns etc etc etc NOT just focus all your time, money and energy on your face.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on January 26, 2012, 08:41:31 AM
Besides, why would I change my mind just because some anonymous person online is trying to?

Please don't discredit the other posters here just because you don't agree with them. Someone could easily say "Why would I make a life altering choice to do something based on what some anonymous person online is telling me to do?"

The OP has to read through everything and then has to decide if the REAL risks are worth what she NEEDS done. It's that simple. I would not let a $1000 deposit sway my choice either. That $1000 deposit MIGHT have been a bad choice and she still can change her path at this point. It might have been a good choice too but that's not for me to decide. I'm not telling her to do it or not do it, just there ARE options and this procedure done where it is being done does have higher risks than some of the other options available. I'm glad many people have had good results, clearly not all have and that is why there is risk involved.

Quote from: Stephe on January 26, 2012, 12:37:32 PMthis procedure done where it is being done does have higher risks than some of the other options available.

I will again restate that Dr. Z can operate in a hospital if you are willing to pay the extra fees.

I will also again point out that detached surgical centers are the NORM around here and are used for pretty much everything.  There is a certification process they must go through and they can't be used if they don't pass.

Were you aware that Dr. Reed in Miami does GCS in a surgical center?  He does have fairly strict health requirements since it not being done in a hospital, but yes even GCS is done in surgical centers in the US.

For that matter what about the increased risk of germ spread in a hospital?  This is something a surgical center doesn't have at all.  Around here surgical centers are the way of the future.  Like I said I can only remember a few hospital surgeries and they were all ER based.  For that matter when my mother in law was in the ER and they sent her home until the Dr had an opening at his surgical center to take out her gallbladder.

Quote from: Stephe on January 26, 2012, 12:37:32 PM
Please don't discredit the other posters here just because you don't agree with them. Someone could easily say "Why would I make a life altering choice to do something based on what some anonymous person online is telling me to do?"

Because I actually had the surgery with the doctor in question and it's not just hear-say. Anyways, I was only giving MY experience. The OP will have to decide for herself.