Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

Transgender = Intersex?

Started by MaxAloysius, January 16, 2012, 02:28:19 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bishounen

Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 01:16:44 PM
Hahaha, Bishounen she underlined the words you capitalised, in answer to you saying you didn't see any. :)

Well, I did not Capitalise the underlined words either. ???
I did, however, capitalise some words, but definitely not those underlined. ???
  •  

Keaira

Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 12:49:28 PM

Keaira: I even have a lot of trouble understanding the very concept of pride in some areas... "I'm proud to be trans!" - "What, you're proud of having been unhappy for a birth defect, having suffered, having remaining masculine traits, and being unable to reproduce?"... "I'm proud to be gay!" - "What, you're proud of being yourself? What about being proud of having brown eyes?" It doesn't make sense... I mean, pride, in theory, is felt about something you feel is good, or better than the rest. Being proud of being what you are feels weird. I'd understand being proud of having transitioned instead of staying in unhappiness, or being proud of not letting oneself be put down by homophobia, but it'S not like being trans or gay is in any way superior to cis-ness and straight-ness...


There are people who are 'out and proud'. Take Chaz Bono for example.  He's pretty open about it and he is certainly giving Joe Public some exposure to the trans community. I used to answer questions people had at work openly. But I've had some bad experiences there that have made me reconsider. Before I might have answered someones question as far as my surgery status and then explain what the surgery entails. I now tell them that to us, that's considered akin to asking a woman "Can I see your vagina?" and so I wont disclose. And to be honest, if they really want to know, they can go do the research and figure it out. I mean I took 4 days off last year and when I came back I was asked by a couple of people, "So how did your surgery go?"
4 days? I mean come on. I'd be lucky to walk again in 4 days and not look like I was in the saddle too long doing it. So some people think I've had SRS. which I could care less about. I just want to live my life and not have to fight for every little thing cis-gendered people take for granted.

  •  

Padma

I take the whole "proud" thing as being shorthand for "I'm proud that I'm not ashamed, in spite of some of the world's best efforts to persuade me I should be."

I'm not proud of being trans and bi, I'm proud of no longer being ashamed to be trans and bi.
Womandrogyne™
  •  

A

Bishounen: I swear I didn't change your post's capitals. But anyway, just forget it; it's not like it actually matters.

Padma: Makes sense. But in that case, I demand that Gay Pride is renamed Gay Pride of Not Being Ashamed Despite What You Say. What? Whaddya mean it won't fit on the flags?
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
No more updates
  •  

Keaira

Quote from: Padma on January 18, 2012, 06:25:19 PM
I take the whole "proud" thing as being shorthand for "I'm proud that I'm not ashamed, in spite of some of the world's best efforts to persuade me I should be."

I'm not proud of being trans and bi, I'm proud of no longer being ashamed to be trans and bi.

Definitely worthy of pride. ^_^
I am proud to be me.
  •  

Padma

Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 06:59:52 PM
Padma: Makes sense. But in that case, I demand that Gay Pride is renamed Gay Pride of Not Being Ashamed Despite What You Say. What? Whaddya mean it won't fit on the flags?

Erm... shorthand? ;D
Womandrogyne™
  •  

AbraCadabra

I'm not angry at anyone here, but I still think to call transsexualism intersex has a flavour for a "cop-out".

And to say it again: The reason for this notion is... that some folks appropriate the idea or condition of transsexualism to a "life-style" or a "choice".

Now if you have to deal with people that are of this mind-set you will have two VERY different reactions to being either intersex (no choice here, i.e. it's not your fault) or transsexual (you exercised a CHOICE, i.e. it's your fault - if not accepted/pass/etc.)

Maybe that will make it a bit clearer - it is the MOTIVATION that is be behind this idea of re-assigning our trans condition to an inter condition.

It is for that reason that I happen to agree with Annah's take - and incidentally the take of the medical profession as it stands at present.

Axélle


Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
  •  

Bishounen

On the proud-thing, I have to answer with what I wrote in the "Are you proud of being Transgender-Thread;

"Yes(I am proud).
Although I would perhaps rather call me 'Gendervarianted', I am very proud of it, and also thankful- Nowadays, as it have enriched my life, my Intellect and my Conception of things, and tought me things in ways that had not been possible if I had not been the way I now am."


So yes, nowadays I am indeed proud of being this way, for it is not only responsible for who I actually am, but also the actual"Me", so to speak.

It is funny; Earlier, I thought of it as a curse and asked myself "Why" and dreamt about how it would have been if I was "Normal"- Nowadays, however, I even 'Shuther' at the idea of if that had actually been the case and I had been -quote- "Normal".
I am nowadays very thankful for being this way and think of it as an actual gift and a privilege.
Not the least, because being this way enables you to truly know whether someone genuinly loves you for being you and whether the person is a truly accepting person, or if they just "love" you with a quote but in reality is narrowminded about everything- You just wouldn't been able to know it if you had been "Normal".
I will not pretend that I am not very demanding myself regarding how my partner "should" be, but I think the reader knows what I am getting at.

I do not consider it a disease or affliction, as some other TG's do, but just a variation.
Although I can indeed very much understand those that truly feel that they have a disease/affliction, and especially so if they truly suffer from their bodies and also have extremely Sex-characteristic bodies that is just not part of them in any way.
  •  

Tazia of the Omineca

My friend Werner (Venha) Van Helmut Steinert a 46 year old man thinks I should have been a girl.
Just because I am transgender, my friend Billy 36 year old thinks I'm great, and I look great (to him I'm hot and doing a good job with my looks)
I like just dressing the way I want to, it feels natural I guess. While my aunt thought I was possessed by a demon once, that was a jaw dropping experience...
She tried to exercise me! No joke, she was yelling Bible quotes of doubtful accuracy at me, I couldn't help, but to laugh and leave the house.

I like being seen as a girl, it's a nice change from being seen as "Thomas, that kid in the dress."
  •  

tweener

I totally agree that it is very likely that trans will one day be shown to be "in the brain."  I know tons of LGBT people (and am queer myself), & with most of them it was evident since childhood.  There is already some proof of a "gay gene," for example.

That said, I'm DEEPLY concerned about people trying to change the definition of intersex  to say that trans is a "type of intersex condition." For ethical reasons & out of respect to trans people, I would never, as a non-trans person, seek to change the definition of trans -- especially w/o consulting trans people or against their will.  Even more importantly, if our definition is changed , intersex people, particularly infants & children, will suffer even more than we already do.  Intersex infants are operated on w/o their consent every hour b/c of physical differences that are visible.  Even in the cases where the differences are not evident at birth b/c they are chromosomal, for example, we are STILL discriminated against, tortured, &/or stripped of our rights if/when this difference is discovered.  This is evidenced by all the Olympic intersex athletes who were stripped of medals & denied the right to compete when a simple swab of the mouth for a chromosome test revealed that they were intersex (some of them ended up committing suicide as a result.)  After these chromosome tests stopped, there have still been cases like that of Caster Semenya, who was accused of not being a woman & denied the right to compete during her "gender verification testing."  She has not publicly revealed whether or not she is intersex, but one can assume that she is b/c it would have quickly been revealed with all the medical tests she was forced to undergo if she had been a non-intersex male or female.  It seems she did not even know she was intersex herself but was publicly outed at the age of only 18 & was on suicide watch as a result.  Even now that she has been allowed to compete, the rumor is that she was forced to take estrogen -- which she had never wanted to do -- in order to do so.  As a result of my activism I was invited to be a expert panelist at the International Olympic Committee meeting on the topic of intersex women in competition. One of the arguments they tried to make is that there is already a structure in place for trans athletes to compete --where they have to medically demonstrate that they have transitioned enough to compete as their chosen sex -- so intersex people can just use the same one.  They were trying to conflate intersex with trans to make it easier for them to deal with us despite the huge difference that trans athletes CHOSE to make whatever changes they made to their body -- they are not being forced into changing their body by athletic committees. 

These are just a few examples which show the very real dangers & discrimination that intersex people are subjected to b/c our differences can be physically shown.  Trans people are not vulnerable to these types of abuses because something "in the brain" cannot be revealed with medical tests. 

Intersex people are struggling to get the right to do what we want, if anything, to our bodies--- a right which trans people already have, as everyone should -- & to attain the legal rights &  protections that trans people already have in may countries.  I do not think this is your objective, but you should understand that trying to change our definition directly works against intersex people & our struggle for human rights & autonomy over our bodies.  It confuses people, most of which are already confused about what intersex is anyway. To this day, the majority of intersex people are not even out b/c it is such a personal thing to reveal (often pertaining to atypical genitals or sex organs), b/c our culture is SO attached to this idea of only "male" or "female" existing that it is psychologically difficult (as well as sometimes dangerous) to come out as something other than that, &/or because they are so traumatized by all the nonconsensual medical "normalizing treatments" they received as children.     

As I said earlier, being gay/lesbian can also be said to be "in the brain."  However, gays & lesbians are not trying to say they are intersex or change the definition of intersex to include them.   Many have even argued, rightfully so, that although the "gay gene" theory is interesting, gays/lesbians shouldn't have to "prove" that it's something they're born with in order to not be discriminated against. 

It is very easy for trans people to simply say that trans is something in the brain that one is born with, just as some gay people do.  There is no reason to appropriate the intersex label/definition to do this. 

Simply put, intersex people are not even "on the map" yet when it comes to people understanding what we are.   Confusing people about what we are now, before we have even established ourselves within society, just makes it easier to make us surgically disappear.  This is evidenced by a recent medical article by the American Assoc of Endocrinologists & Gynecologists that called intersex a subcategory of trans.  They know better than most that we are not, but if they do this, call us trans, it makes their abuses easier to get away with b/c instead of having to admit that it is wrong to operate on someone's genitals against their will, if an intersex child grows up & says they don't like what was done to them or don't feel they are the sex they were surgically assigned to be, well then the medical establishment can just say, "oh, we didn't do anything wrong, you're just trans."  And again, intersex gets disappeared. 

Please do not facilitate the abuses against intersex people.  Let intersex be intersex as we let trans be trans.  We are comrades in the struggle against gender-variant phobia and should respect each other's needs as such.   Thank you.

Hida Viloria, Chairperson, Organisation Intersex International
  •  

MaxAloysius

Quote from: tweener on January 25, 2012, 11:39:27 PM
That said, I'm DEEPLY concerned about people trying to change the definition of intersex  to say that trans is a "type of intersex condition."

Intersex people are struggling to get the right to do what we want, if anything, to our bodies--- a right which trans people already have, as everyone should -- & to attain the legal rights &  protections that trans people already have in may countries.  I do not think this is your objective, but you should understand that trying to change our definition directly works against intersex people & our struggle for human rights & autonomy over our bodies.

First of all, I was not suggesting changing the definition of the intersex condition at all, but of changing the trans definition, which renders a lot of your points moot.

Secondly, am I allowed to do what I want with my body? Because I'm fairly certain I've spent years now fighting for that right, and being denied it by the medical community. Now I'll be the first to admit I'm in the dark about intersex rights, so I can't comment on that, but I certainly know my own, and to say that I have the right to do with my body as I please, and am privy to legal rights and protection is way off. I should be, just like you should, but that doesn't make it so.

This said I respect your opinion on the matter, and thank you for the informative post. :)
  •  

Annah

This is only my opinion, but I think you should be using your efforts to strengthen the public image of transsexualism than to try to create additional definitions to the word Intersex.

This thread has run it's course imo.
  •  

Keaira

Meh. To be honest, I don't want to have another label stuck to me. I mean I've wondered if I'm intersexed. I get period pains every month, no adams apple, 5'5, gender neutral voice. Why the heck do I seem to not fit the typical trans mold? But I don't see any benefit to finding out. Until science actually says that transsexuality falls under the IS category, I'm happy with having the two different groups being separate. But I'm also happy to support the IS community because we do face some similar struggles and some that are unique to our respective groups.
  •  

Nurse With Wound

Quote from: Rabbit on January 16, 2012, 04:24:37 AM
Don't be so harsh on yourself :) There is nothing wrong with you... we aren't meant to be all the same... diversity is a GOOD thing. The only time something becomes a "defect' is when it starts to negatively impact our condition... and, well, being trans doesn't negatively impact a person (it is societies judgement of it which does that).
I know this is back tracking to like the first page but...

"Being trans" does impact negatively on my person, I complete self loathing from my features, my body, a great disdain for my genitals where I've been to the point of self harm over, a daily occurring feeling of my body being wrong that crushes my every possible moments of joy into the ground. This complete disconnect between my body and my mind.

For me having gender dysphoria has been such a negative experience without societies judgments that I can't view it as anything but a defect, like the OP.

Though I can't even begin to think of myself as "trans", to me I am a girl, a girl with a birth defect of the wrong genitals and chromosomes.
Scaring away, my ghosts.
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) Just out of interest, do adult people with a recognised 'intersex' condition have to jump through the same hoops as people who were born 'transsexual', for example when it comes to counselling and psych assessments, RLE, etc before being allowed/eligible for surgery?

::) What I'm getting at, is it easier for intersex people to transition ? In other words not so much red tape ?

Metta Zenda :) 
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Keaira

I honestly never thought about that.
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Keaira on January 28, 2012, 02:29:34 AM
I honestly never thought about that.

Kia Ora Keaira,

::) It would be interesting to compare the difference -if there is any difference in the way intersex and transex people are treated that is...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Keaira

Quote from: Zenda on January 28, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Kia Ora Keaira,

::) It would be interesting to compare the difference -if there is any difference in the way intersex and transex people are treated that is...

Metta Zenda :)

It would. When I go see my doctor in March I am going to see if I can get some tests done. I may have Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome

Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome is a condition where a male has a uterus (typically small and underdeveloped) and/or other female gonadal material. The external genitalia and chromosomal structure (XY) reflect typical male development. The condition is typically diagnosed through pelvic ultrasound, MRI, or abdominal surgery for some other purpose later in life.

Which may be the cause for my period-like symptoms. Or Irritable Man Syndrome. Whatever the heck is causing it, I'll be happy with answers. I also wonder if that will change things about my treatment.
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora Keaira,

::) I've just googled  Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome, blimey how many intersex conditions are there ?

::) I remember being checked out by my endocrinologist and him rattling on about something about my thyroid gland, my height[I'm 160cm] and my lack of an Adam's apple and minimal body hair...I didn't think much of it at the time...For quite a while I was under the impression intersex people could not have children, it was only in the last few years I found out some could...Still for me it's no longer an issue, my transition is well and truly over...


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Keaira

Kia Ora Zenda,

What did your doctor find?

I am diverging this thread from it's original intent. I'm sorry. We should try to stay on topic. I have a thread in which PMDS has been mentioned.
  •