Whenever we talk about whether we "pass" or not and human sexual dimorphism, I think a lot of the times people seem to forget that human sexual dimorphism exists on a bell curve with lots of overlap, and not necassarily clear cut "male" and "female" categories. A lot of us seem to be under the impression that all cis women have soft faces with an hourglass figure and all cis men have broad shoulders, chiseled faces, and a muscly build, but that's simply not true. This warped perspective of human sexual dimorphism causes us to feel more insecure and gives us unrealistic standards which we compare ourselves to.

For example, actor Michael Cera has pretty feminine features and a high voice, to the point that he can actually pass for a pre-T trans man:
Michael Cera Interview with David Letterman.

Bodybuilder Lauren Powers has a deep voice and is very muscular, and for those who are wondering, she hasn't taken any testosterone, yet she still looks more masculine than the great majority pre-E trans women:
My Strange Addiction- Lauren the Bodybuilder

Awesome, nice to know that I'm more feminine looking then Laura.

Cis people that don't pass make me so happy. We're all different. Tbh, I didn't always pass as female when I was trying to.

If I look in the right suburbs I am sure I can find a few beings who don't pass for human!

Quote from: Laura91 on January 27, 2012, 12:02:25 AM
I know I shouldn't be surprised by this but the comments kill me. People are so amazingly stupid they shouldn't be allowed to breed.

They're jealous that they aren't as beautiful, confident, and happy as she is.

Quote from: justmeinoz on January 27, 2012, 12:28:23 AM
If I look in the right suburbs I am sure I can find a few beings who don't pass for human!

Bahahah!!!

The point of passing is to avoid unpleasant situations. Whether you are cis or trans is really rather irrelevant to that. I think the comments are kinda the case in point.

If ending up in those situations doesn't bother you, or you are willing to pay the cost that's totally cool. But don't pretend there isn't a cost to pay. I've gotten mistaken a couple times for a bloke from behind due to my height, hairstyle, and clothing. I accept that's a potential price for how I present. But I also have the advantage of a very feminine face and voice to get out of those situations. Otherwise they could have gone VERY BADLY.

Passing is an issue of safety, security and sanity. I really don't see how cis people who fail to pass have anything to do with it.

I love the actor Michael Cera because of his high voice and feminine features. I believe Justin Bieber has also helped the FTM community.
He also a very good example of a cis guy who doesn't pass. Daniel Radcliffe thought Bieber was a girl when he heard him sing!

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 27, 2012, 08:20:37 AM
The point of passing is to avoid unpleasant situations. Whether you are cis or trans is really rather irrelevant to that. I think the comments are kinda the case in point.

If ending up in those situations doesn't bother you, or you are willing to pay the cost that's totally cool. But don't pretend there isn't a cost to pay. I've gotten mistaken a couple times for a bloke from behind due to my height, hairstyle, and clothing. I accept that's a potential price for how I present. But I also have the advantage of a very feminine face and voice to get out of those situations. Otherwise they could have gone VERY BADLY.

Passing is an issue of safety, security and sanity. I really don't see how cis people who fail to pass have anything to do with it.

Hmm I lived as an out transgendered person in my redneck little neighborhood for about 6 years before I "transitioned" into passing more. I really had no issues, a few jerks along the way said things, this was VERY rare (maybe 3 times in 6 years?) but I never feared for my life. Explain what you mean by "VERY BADLY" as I never experienced anything close to that in 6+ years of being CLEARLY a transgendered person who was born male. Maybe once again it was being confidant in myself that made most people accept this or at least tolerate it? I do like being able to pass as female better than not, but being a totally out transperson was MUCH better than pretending to be a cis guy.

Well, what I consider an unacceptable result is probably rather different than what you do. But I mean being asked to remove myself from the women's washroom, or having my status spread around the area I live. Either of which I would consider "VERY BAD."

I am not comfortable with being out. And I would consider that an extremely high cost. If you are comfortable in that situation, that's great, as I said. But different people are different, nah?

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 27, 2012, 09:19:00 AM
having my status spread around the area I live.

That is my situation, which really sucks.

exists on a bell curve

Nah, too flat, too two-dimensional in a 3-D world - it's not only a left-right thing, but a front back thing, and an up and down thing.  It's a situation thang more than anything else.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 27, 2012, 08:20:37 AM
The point of passing is to avoid unpleasant situations. Whether you are cis or trans is really rather irrelevant to that. I think the comments are kinda the case in point.

If ending up in those situations doesn't bother you, or you are willing to pay the cost that's totally cool. But don't pretend there isn't a cost to pay. I've gotten mistaken a couple times for a bloke from behind due to my height, hairstyle, and clothing. I accept that's a potential price for how I present. But I also have the advantage of a very feminine face and voice to get out of those situations. Otherwise they could have gone VERY BADLY.

Passing is an issue of safety, security and sanity. I really don't see how cis people who fail to pass have anything to do with it.

I totally agree. I'm not denying that passing can be very important and it can make all the difference between getting beat up or not getting beat up and other important, dangerous, and/or critical situations. I was not trying to imply that worrying about passing is superficial. I just wanted to point out that I think sometimes us trans people get insecure and we compare ourselves to extremely masculine/feminine cis people and assume that all cis people fit that extreme masculine/feminine mold, when in fact there can be a lot overlap when it comes to human sexual dimorphism. It's not even just among us trans people, but even the general population in general that exaggerates human sexual dimorphism. For example, a lot of high school biology textbooks say that women store weight around their hips and thighs, even though banana and apple shaped bodies are actually more somewhat common in women than pear or hourglass shaped bodies.

Quote from: Stephe on January 27, 2012, 09:07:29 AM
Hmm I lived as an out transgendered person in my redneck little neighborhood for about 6 years before I "transitioned" into passing more. I really had no issues, a few jerks along the way said things, this was VERY rare (maybe 3 times in 6 years?) but I never feared for my life. Explain what you mean by "VERY BADLY" as I never experienced anything close to that in 6+ years of being CLEARLY a transgendered person who was born male.

One person's life is merely anecdotal evidence. Maybe you're just lucky; we don't all face open discrimination. But don't think that just because it didn't happen to you it doesn't happen to other people.

When I was younger and before I transitioned, I got crap because people couldn't figure out "what I was." Because of my androgyny, I was sometimes called names, from dyke and ->-bleeped-<-got to it and that. I was challenged in bathrooms. My name, which was male, was questioned. I was even accused of identity theft once.

Later, when I started going to meetings, I knew a few gals who got crap on a regular basis--snickers, rude remarks, disrespect, restroom issues. I also know (IRL) a few trans people, both male and female, who have been beaten up just for being trans. It's incidents like those that make TDOR such a prominent feature of the trans landscape (transcape?).

Quote from: Arch on January 27, 2012, 01:58:06 PM
One person's life is merely anecdotal evidence. Maybe you're just lucky;

*As you discount my life experience*

Confidence plays a HUGE role in how people react. Look and feel like you are doing something wrong and people will assume you are and you will be treated that way.

I've never understood what a lot of cis people mean by masculine and feminine, which is why I have always felt out of place around cis people even though I am one. I feel so much better around androgynous, or people who don't buy into the gender binary bull crap.

I never understood why I was called a tomboy just because I am not a fan of dresses or I enjoy playing video games, I never thought that that was all feminine meant. I am still not sure, I thought feminine and masculine had a wide spectrum and that everyone can have both masculine and feminine qualities no matter what you identify as.

So many cis people are uncomfortable when people don't fit into boxes, but it limits those of us that feel the society is completely leaving us out. Or being put down because some things are considered feminine and it's hated for some reason. I don't really understand a lot of hereto people, especially disingenuous liberals.

Tilda Swinton is a good example, Brian Molko, Annie Lennox. I loved the glam rock era too because people were actually tying to expand the limits and peoples perception, but some how we ended up back here and I feel I am supposed to be a certain way again, I barely even leave my house anymore to be honest.