Is because there's a conflict itself between humanity's desire to be more civilized (including more nice and caring), more intelligent, and more egalitarian, vs the primitive, the un-civilized, animalistic and survival instincts that people have in varying levels, as well as the resulting individual desires (especially among ambitious people) to be superior, rich, and the lust for power?  It seems to me that civilization is a long term project of humanity that's only been going on for maybe the past 6000 years, we are a lot more civil than say the Romans were, yet we still have quite a lot of social progress to do, except for maybe parts of Europe and Japan.  We always have to be struggling with the conservatives, the fearful, the jealous, the violent, the bigoted, the arrogant, the aggressive, the ignorant, the "incapable of thinking about others", the greedy,  etc... that hinder social progress and the advancement of civilization, and as a result a LOT of people suffer and die, whether it is from people dying because of no healthcare in the United States, to people suffering health problems in much of the United States from fracking activities because of the greedy natural gas industry, to Iraqis and Afghanis that have been killed this past decade because of ignorance and fear, and greed among the government.

  I've been trying to understand humanity for quite awhile, and I feel that this explanation is getting closer to why I feel that people are the way they are. 

Civilisation will be the death of us all!    As Freud wrote Civilisation needs - if it is going to work - to greatly suppress the individualism of its members.   Civilisation simply won't work if people are allowed to do what feels right when it feels right.  So a great deal of coercion is needed to make sure that everyone does whatever they are assigned to do.    As people have an instinctual dislike of surrendering a great deal of control over to someone else the need for ever increasing surveillance and ever more sophisticated monitoring checking information gathering and processing arises. 
As a consequence of this people have two choices (1) surrender - unwillingly to society's dictates and slowly but surely become a lifeless automaton living a life largely devoid of meaning, vitality and spirituality.  This is the life that most people choose and it will destroy them physically and psychologically long before the death of the body.  Civilisation is set up in ways that greatly benefit a small global elite and the cost of the happiness and peace of mind of the great majority.  What good is living to 100 if you are leading a needle-narrow, miserable existence of work and sleep, sleep and work and to escape this suffocating monotony you have to drink like a fish at the weekend to get any sort of fun from life.   
These people have had their spirit broken, but they still need to be watched by the elite's goons as they will show up to work but do as little work as they feel they can get away with.   They also lack any sort of creativity.
The second group is much smaller than the first one.  This group consists of people who haven't had their spirit's broken by an all pervasive highly exploitative society.   These are the great criminals, avant-garde artists, anarchists, long-term-unemployed etc.   The jails and lunatic asylums exist to control these people so that they don't infect the discontented 'sheeple' and start a revolution!

Civilisation could best be described as one huge open air prison.  Certainly there are some physical comforts  but the owners of society aren't stupid.  they know that nobody would tolerate for a moment a life devoid of any pleasure.

It is interesting that you see people and societies that exist outside the confines of civilisation as 'animalistic', violent etc.   These tribal societies never built the atom bomb, they never developed biochemical weapons.  They have never waged world wars, nor killed millions in bombing raids and concentration camps.  These societies don't turn their members into automatons through endless repetitive work.   The uncivilised don't have prisons and lunatic asylums and old folks homes where their elderly are abandoned to their fate.

These people may not live as long -although they often do - as we civilised people, but their lives are happier, freer and their physical health superior.

"Birds of a feather, flock together." Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Katelyn on January 29, 2012, 01:09:43 PM
... as well as the resulting individual desires (especially among ambitious people) to be superior, rich, and the lust for power?  It seems to me that civilization is a long term project of humanity that's only been going on for maybe the past 6000 years, we are a lot more civil than say the Romans were, yet we still have quite a lot of social progress to do, except for maybe parts of Europe and Japan.  We always have to be struggling with the conservatives, the fearful, the jealous, the violent, the bigoted, the arrogant, the aggressive, the ignorant, the "incapable of thinking about others", the greedy,  etc... that hinder social progress and the advancement of civilization, and as a result a LOT of people suffer and die, whether it is from people dying because of no healthcare in the United States, to people suffering health problems in much of the United States from fracking activities because of the greedy natural gas industry, to Iraqis and Afghanis that have been killed this past decade because of ignorance and fear, and greed among the government.

People have natural tendencies toward lust, greed, and jealousy.  That's no different now than it ever has been.  I think the notion of "advancing civilization" is a rather nebulous thing. It clearly has advanced in many ways.

But I think it shows somewhat of an ideological bias to claim that Europe and Japan are somehow more civilized than the USA is. Yes they both have universal access to health care.  But Europe is still full of bigots and there is a level of racism prevalent in Japan that most Westerners don't know about.  And Japan still has the death penalty. And Japan has way more sexism than the USA.  And when was the last time a country in Europe acted on it's own to prevent a humanitarian crisis? Did they act to stop the slaughter in Bosnia?  No. They were going to sit there and watch genocide in their own back yard until the USA coordinated a response.  IMHO Europe is set up to create mostly stress free social safety net with creature comforts.  In my opinion it is selfish in it's own way and no more civilized than any other model.   I don't see how that is more civilized than every other model.  It is certainly more comfortable for those who are at the bottom economically.

I think it would be cool to start with a more ideologically neutral set of measures of what constitutes civilization.  It might measure things like literacy, lifespan, knowledge contributed, journalism, science, engineering, fiction, arts, music, sports, wealth, creativity, safety from nature, safety from other people, fairness, justice, compassion, respect, etc.   Clearly the USA is not going to win all these categories.  But when I dig deeply I see a rather complex picture among all modern societies.   I would would not discount for a minute the extraordinary contributions that the USA has made to world civilization.

Then it gets tricky when you add in more controversial measures.  For example, a civilized communist might say you can't be civilized unless everyone makes the same amount of money. And an Ayn Rand objectivist might claim that you can't be civilized unless everyone is paid exactly to the penny based on their contribution. But I don't see those two measures as measures of civilization. They are ideological.  And I note that people from both civilized models have made great contributions to their societies and to the body of knowledge we now have.

^^ This. Plus, Japan has Godzilla tearing up the joint.

@ Venora, great post and interesting information about Japan, I have heard similar concerning their dislike of foreigners.

QuotePeople have natural tendencies toward lust, greed, and jealousy.

I agree with this especially.  A world without envy and jealousy would not be the world it is today. Jealousy really is a curse, and humans have it in bucket loads.  I'm not an excessively jealous person, but I suffer from it from time to time, it's a wasteful emotion that has no virtue.

Quote from: Vanora on January 29, 2012, 03:37:28 PM
People have natural tendencies toward lust, greed, and jealousy.  That's no different now than it ever has been. 

Hence why I said primitive and animalistic.

QuoteBut Europe is still full of bigots

Notice I said parts of Europe.  Yes, Europe does have a problem with racism.  It's not taboo like it is in the U.S. (plus the racism in America is more covert)  Yet, they are rational when it comes to government and that they have a "we are all in the same boat" mentality, compared to the American "I don't care about anyone other than myself and my immediate family" which is wrong for a country that is a Democracy, because that leads to group selfishness and competition with different groups of people, because each group doesn't give a ->-bleeped-<- about the other group.

Quoteand there is a level of racism prevalent in Japan that most Westerners don't know about.  And Japan still has the death penalty. And Japan has way more sexism than the USA.

Perhaps.  But they are more respectful, peaceful, honorful, and financially a more equal society.  Bathrooms are clean there and you can even find musical instruments for people to play in the subway station, because noone will go and vandalize them.  And they don't have the government telling them to do that.   America has many more "I don't care about anyone" people that throw trash on the floor and steal things.  Racism is a problem all around the world, and you've got to be kidding if you don't think that America still has a racism problem.

QuoteAnd when was the last time a country in Europe acted on it's own to prevent a humanitarian crisis? Did they act to stop the slaughter in Bosnia?  No. They were going to sit there and watch genocide in their own back yard until the USA coordinated a response.

Bosnia was one of the few times the U.S. got involved that didn't involve financial or political interests.  Even the latest Libyan war was to keep China from benefiting from Libyan oil.

QuoteIMHO Europe is set up to create mostly stress free social safety net with creature comforts.  In my opinion it is selfish in it's own way and no more civilized than any other model.   I don't see how that is more civilized than every other model.  It is certainly more comfortable for those who are at the bottom economically.

Maybe they care more about having happy lives?  Do you think that America is the hero of the world?   #1: According to people's opinions from all around the world (which I saw in a documentary), one of the biggest things they thought about America is that they don't like America thinking that they have to police the world.  #2: America is NOT the hero of the world, it pretends to be but everyone else around the world knows that America's really doing this to bully other countries, enforce its power, and advance the financial interests of certain industries (especially the oil and the military industrial complex.)  Another thing that people from around the world said about America is that America is like the Roman Empire, and it will soon fall.

QuoteI think it would be cool to start with a more ideologically neutral set of measures of what constitutes civilization.  It might measure things like literacy, lifespan, knowledge contributed, journalism, science, engineering, fiction, arts, music, sports, wealth, creativity, safety from nature, safety from other people, fairness, justice, compassion, respect, etc.   Clearly the USA is not going to win all these categories.  But when I dig deeply I see a rather complex picture among all modern societies.   I would would not discount for a minute the extraordinary contributions that the USA has made to world civilization.

That's perhaps because of America's culture.  I'm not denying the positive contributions of American culture.  America has perhaps the best culture in terms of driving creativity and innovation, and that's reflected by the numerous worldwide influential industries and inventions that have come from America, .   But America on the other hand is still more of a social darwinist country, with a lack of adequate government services, a healthcare system only accessible to the lucky (to have a good insurance company) and rich, an education system that costs is becoming more and more unaffordable (or debt strapping since students would have to take out massive loans to pay for school), and inadequate help to the poor, homeless, and unemployed.  There still runs a "puritan work ethic" (which is something about more than 400 years old) in American culture that you must work hard, and if you are suffering, its your fault.  That's very archiac thinking and actually counter to individualism since it leads to many people consuming much of their life in working and making money, and drives an idea that you must acquire material things if you want to be happy (which much of the time is not the case and which leads many people to feel like they went down the wrong path in life.)  America's the best country in the world for the rich and uniquely talented, but perhaps one of the worst in the developed world for people who are middle class or below.

Quote from: Happy Girl! on January 29, 2012, 01:52:20 PM
Civilisation will be the death of us all!    As Freud wrote Civilisation needs - if it is going to work - to greatly suppress the individualism of its members.   Civilisation simply won't work if people are allowed to do what feels right when it feels right.  So a great deal of coercion is needed to make sure that everyone does whatever they are assigned to do.    As people have an instinctual dislike of surrendering a great deal of control over to someone else the need for ever increasing surveillance and ever more sophisticated monitoring checking information gathering and processing arises. 

Europe has a far bigger government than America, and people there have lived happier than in the U.S., with free education in France, stress free healthcare access in much of Europe, and other generous benefits (even free services to new mothers.)  Of course, Europe has had a much stronger union presence, the government wouldn't have given them all their benefits without the unions (however, with the European crisis, it seems the tide is changing.)

QuoteAs a consequence of this people have two choices (1) surrender - unwillingly to society's dictates and slowly but surely become a lifeless automaton living a life largely devoid of meaning, vitality and spirituality.  This is the life that most people choose and it will destroy them physically and psychologically long before the death of the body.

I understand that, but this happens in America anyway through not controlling the economy (to allow wages to stagnate and the costs of everything else to go up, thus forcing people to work harder just to live), not giving a safety net for people (forcing people to make more money) and through the culture.

QuoteCivilisation could best be described as one huge open air prison.  Certainly there are some physical comforts  but the owners of society aren't stupid.  they know that nobody would tolerate for a moment a life devoid of any pleasure.

Have you ever heard about the Dark Ages?  Without civilization, you'd be living like the wild, fearful of gangs of criminals and having to be a good fighter.  You'd have very little sympathy from anyone.  You'd have to barter (because there would be no money) or raise food on your own, as well.  It would be just as ugly as the wild for Animals (who have to always worry about eating and being eaten.)  Darwinism and natural selection would be extreme.  There would be a lack of stability for anyone to pursue anything (unless they are privileged to live in wealthy and well guarded places). 

I think its far better for the people to take control of the government and have it suit the needs of society (but of course, this first needs people to be smart, rational, and not be motivated by short term self interest goals, and that if everyone is doing better, they are going to do better.)

Well said, Katelyn.  I can't agree with you more about America - having escaped the "New Rome" myself for greener grass Down Under, it's refreshing to see someone else who shares my views and can get away from the religiously blind patriotism that sometimes rears its head whenever someone dares to say something negative about America.