Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 09:20:52 AM
Totally untrue and also an extremely disrespecting thing to say that she, when she have achieved her goal, looks mentally ill just because she went against Political Correctness and chose the knife instead of looking like a bag of wrinkles, which she very apparently did not wish to do, whether she would have passed or not.

She looks way better in the after-pic.

This is just YOUR opinion. Maybe you don't grasp not everyone will see this the same?

I'm sorry but I agree she WAY overdid the plastic surgery and looks strange now. Maybe -some- FFS would have helped but this is an example of bad plastic surgery. Wrinkles happen, most women have them so being a "bag of wrinkles" has nothing to do with passing.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 10:09:22 AM
And she very apparently did not think so herself, either, and she apparently did not like aging, either.

Unless you know her, you are assuming she is happy with the results..

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 05:56:58 PM
This is just YOUR opinion. Maybe you don't grasp not everyone will see this the same?

I'm sorry but I agree she WAY overdid the plastic surgery and looks strange now. Maybe -some- FFS would have helped but this is an example of bad plastic surgery. Wrinkles happen, most women have them so being a "bag of wrinkles" has nothing to do with passing.

A third vote for the before pic in that woman's case. She did look female before. Very natural and like many women her age. And her lovely blue eyes stood out far better there. The others are a different story, except maybe for the third girl, who really doesn't look much different.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 08, 2012, 09:20:52 AM
Totally untrue and also an extremely disrespecting thing to say that she, when she have achieved her goal, looks mentally ill just because she went against Political Correctness and chose the knife instead of looking like a bag of wrinkles, which she very apparently did not wish to do, whether she would have passed or not.

She looks way better in the after-pic.

I agree.  IMO she is not used to smiling, if she smiled, I think she would look better in the second photo. 

All the pics are a good representation of successful FFS.  Some are quite subtle while others are obviously more extreme, but IMO they all achieved great results.

I think it's unfair to criticize people who want to look beautiful as well as looking female.  As women age, they can start to look more masculine, that's why even cis women have surgery to remove the hardening of their features (not just wrinkles).

In some respects it is pandering to the masses, but it is a dog eat dog world, and 'beauty' does open doors.

Quote from: Hermione01 on February 08, 2012, 06:32:34 PM
I agree.  IMO she is not used to smiling, if she smiled, I think she would look better in the second photo. 

All the pics are a good representation of successful FFS.  Some are quite subtle while others are obviously more extreme, but IMO they all achieved great results.

I think it's unfair to criticize people who want to look beautiful as well as looking female.  As women age, they can start to look more masculine, that's why even cis women have surgery to remove the hardening of their features (not just wrinkles).

In some respects it is pandering to the masses, but it is a dog eat dog world, and 'beauty' does open doors.

  I agree and i'd like to say that full FFS is never subtle, it's only when you get a single procedure or two done that it looks subtle. If you can't see the differences in those after pic's then you must be on crack or you just refuse to admit it because you're jealous that you can't afford it which is the case most of the time. It's really sad that transwomen wanting to look as female as possible get nothing but negative remarks from the majority of the trans community.

  In this world a woman's worth is based on her looks alone and nothing else, it's sad but true.   

Quote from: Danielle×o on February 08, 2012, 06:56:50 PM
  I agree and i'd like to say that full FFS is never subtle, it's only when you get a single procedure or two done that it looks subtle. If you can't see the differences in those after pic's then you must be on crack or you just refuse to admit it because you're jealous that you can't afford it which is the case most of the time.

Good grief..

No I'm not on drugs, but I don't see a huge difference in all of those pics if they are "full FFS".

I have had some cosmetic surgery, a single procedure and the results were far from subtle. I could afford to spend $100K on more if I wanted to, don't see the point.

So what the proponents of this seem to be saying is unless you agree with me your are high on drugs or jealous? O.o

I can find a dozen "before and after" shots for everything under the sun and 99% of the time they are frowning before, smiling after.

I'm not saying -some- FFS isn't helpful. I just feel most people cis and trans end up getting TOO much done.

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 11:26:36 PM
Good grief..

I'm not saying -some- FFS isn't helpful. I just feel most people cis and trans end up getting TOO much done.

+1! Yes, cis women who had too much plastic surgery end up looking like MTF's. MTF's who had too much plastic surgery look like surgically created monsters...usuallly an FFS forehead is inconspicuous but the rest can be totally plastic looking.

Drawing a lot of negative attention.

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 05:53:24 PM

And honestly the MAIN difference in most of the shorts is the have guys hair, zero makeup and are frowning. It's the same BS most plastic surgery sites do for GG's

Totally not true, and, you know it, too.

If you truly are saying that you cannot tell that atleast three of the persons on the photosets had very masculine facial features, then you are deliberately not telling the truth.

QuoteWe'll never know because these shots are SET UP to make them look dramatically different. I could take off my makeup, my wig etc, frown and no one would know it's the same person..

Okay, no true difference, then, and they did the best staying au naturelle, in other words? Yet that strategy seemed to not be enough for you, as I tend to recall that you fairly recently bragged about having feminized your nose with Rhinoplasty?

QuoteNow you're saying unless you have FFS you are doomed. Sorry too many people here have lived full time without it and NEVER experienced anything like what you describe.

Nope. I am saying that some people are indeed doomed unless they have Facial Surgery. You know it, and you have seen them and their threads where they are saying that they just cannot take living with their features any longer, are harrased repeatedly and are now considering suicide.

To pretend for Transpolitical Correctness sake that these people do not exist and will do just fine just without FFS, is mockery, and anyone that mocks these people are either totally non-caring or, lying their behinds of.
Especially if they fell for feminizing surgery themselves.

I dont think all of those women pictured looked better, some did but i gotta say its hard to tell what extent surgery played as they are all sadface before and happy face after which makes a big difference to femininity, also most of the "before" pics are not very well lit.

They all look younger though

Quote from: Stephe on February 08, 2012, 11:26:36 PM
Good grief..

I could afford to spend $100K on more if I wanted to, don't see the point.

Maybe you are not seeing the point because you simply don't understand some other peoples- that are not you- sufferings?

QuoteSo what the proponents of this seem to be saying is unless you agree with me your are high on drugs or jealous? O.o

I can find a dozen "before and after" shots for everything under the sun and 99% of the time they are frowning before, smiling after.

Okay, here is a re-post of pic of someone not frowning or doing any exaggerated expressions on either pic.
She was apparently not satisfied at all looking like her natural self, as her external look did not match her inner image of what she looked like.
According to your reasoning, she would have did "just fine" without any interventions whatsoever. According to her, you are wrong, as her inner image did not match the previous look and therefore decided to arrange so that those two selves matched.

I dont think stephe was tring to say that FFS was never successfull or that every one of those examples ended up being not worth the effort, you are twisting her words.

What is wrong with you Bishoen.  I think it is  very very inappropriate for you to post up a picture of a member on this site and then accuse people of making statements about them.  Stephe did not say at all what you are saying she said.  Obviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Trying to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.  And so is your judgement that some transwomen who don't look "feminine" enough should get FFS or they will never pass.  That's just a ridiculous generalization.   

Quote from: Beverley on February 09, 2012, 10:13:50 AM
He is not smiling in the left pic, she is smiling in the right pic. A smile always makes someone look better

Ofcourse. However, that smile certainly had a drastic effect on the nose, wouldn't you say?

QuoteBut how will we ever know? Maybe she *did* look OK without FFS but that is not what you are comparing here.

Oh I definitely think she looked more than okay in the before-pic, and definitely appearancewise a hot guy. However, apparently she did neither identify with, nor wanted to be, that hot guy.

QuoteYou are comparing a man to a woman and saying that FFS made the woman.

Not at all. In fact, I am not saying at all that FFS made the woman. The woman was already there. FFS merely brought that woman out, now when she was enabled to become one with the now matching exterior.

QuoteIf we had a pre-FFS of the woman just before surgery then your comparison would be a better one.

Why? Her opinion on what she needed done, apparently did not change, so what would a analysis over whether she "truly needed" it or not, do?

QuoteIf she wanted FFS and it made her feel better about herself then that is a judgement for her, but even so she may well have been a beautiful woman without FFS. She is certainly lovely now.

Beverley

And that is the only important thing; That she did it to feel herself.

We can assume the person in the first picture did not consider themselves to be "male" or they would not have had ffs.

It is rude to refer to the first picture as "He" and "man to a woman".

Quote from: mixie on February 09, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
What is wrong with you Bishoen. I think it is  very very inappropriate for you to post up a picture of a member on this site and then accuse people of making statements about them.

Now you are just being silly, Mixie.   Firstly, the member did upload the pic herself in a thread on FFS, right here at Susan's, as an example for others.

 

QuoteStephe did not say at all what you are saying she said.

Yes she did.   

QuoteObviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Tring to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.

Yet you are doing the exact same?  I have certainly never in any thread seen you have anything nice to say about someone that have had a big amount of surgery, regardless of how that person turned out. I have, however, seen you often use descrptions such as that they look plastic, like blow up dolls, or mentally ill- And that in your very own words.

So, when you say things like; "Obviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Tring to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.",  Then you are going against those very statements yourself by your own judgement over those that do make their personal choises.

QuoteAnd so is your judgement that some transwomen who don't look "feminine" enough should get FFS or they will never pass.  That's just a ridiculous generalization.

I have never ever said that some MTF's should get FFS. Never.
I am, however, defending their right to have such procedures without having to get judged by the Trans-politically correct lot.

Again: I am talking about the fate of some MTF's- not all- Big difference.
As long as there are people that with sugarcoated words are trying to belittle the experiences, sufferrings and needs of other Trans-persons, I will always defend those disabled trans-persons right to do so without having to be fed by mantras that they are "just fine" as it is, although they can't even put their foot outside of the door.

Quote from: Bishounen on February 09, 2012, 10:56:39 AM


Yet you are doing the exact same?  I have certainly never in any thread seen you have anything nice to say about someone that have had a big amount of surgery, regardless of how that person turned out. I have, however, seen you often use descrptions such as that they look plastic, like blow up dolls, or mentally ill- And that in your very own words.

So, when you say things like; "Obviously FFS or any form of plastic surgery is a personal choice.  There is not one right answer.    Tring to push one person's choice as the right choice for everyone else is wrong.",  Then you are going against those very statements yourself by your own judgement over those that do make their personal choises.

Well you are flat out lying  then.  Since I just said in this thread that the last picture the FFS was beautiful and the girl looks lovely. 

QuoteWell i6's all relative isn't it?   I'm not saying my opinion is correct.   You have your view of what is attractive I have mine.   It is a bit disrespectful to say she looks mentally ill,   but i wasn't saying it in a disrespectful way or a snide way.  She actually looks sad and depressed to me in the after picture.  She doesn't look happy at all.   So I didn't mean anything more than that.   But in the before picture she looks like an energized healthy woman.   I do not agree at all that she looks better after.   Not at all.  And it has nothing to do with me not liking plastic surgery.  The last example in the set of pictures is an excellent example of beautiful FFS

I think this whole thing is very rude to say the least.   I have also complemented Stephe on her FFS nose work.    So what in the world are you talking about.  I also think it is very wrong and rude of you to say that women looked like "MEN" in the before picture.   I'm really taken aback at your attitude.   My personal preference is that I don't like a look of unnatural plastic surgery on anyone.   I think Bruce Jenner,   Madonna and Calpernia all look overly PSed and it doesn't look attractive to me.  None of it has anything to do with being transgender or not.

Warning!

Knock off the "personal" comments, everyone.

This is a thread about passing, keep it at that.

Quote from: mixie on February 09, 2012, 11:25:48 AM
Well you are a flat out liar then.  Since I just said in this thread that the last picture the FFS was beautiful and the girl looks lovely.

I was referring to you statements historically.

QuoteI think this whole thing is very rude to say the least.   I have also complemented Stephe on her FFS nose work.

Ah, but that was subtle surgery, I was specifically referring to your histotrical attitudes towards extensive surgery.

QuoteSo what in the world are you talking about.

The attitude and unwillingness to accept those that do not want to, for instance, stay "natural".
I do know that you now think that; "People are willing to do what they want, but they still look like plastic blow up-dolls" which you ofcourse are fully entitled to think and I often think many people that have had truly too much surgery looks either grotesque or ridiculous, BUT, I never say so. Why? Because saying so is the very same attitude that Homophobes use when they say that; "People are allowed to be how gay they want to, as long as I don't have to see it".

That is the kind of attitude I am reacting on.

QuoteI also think it is very wrong and rude of you to say that women looked like "MEN" in the before picture.

It is nothing rude or wrong about that at all, as they did look like men, and apparently they thought so themselves, too.

Looking like a man, however, is not the same as being one.
Hence, if I would have said; "They were MEN", then that would have been an insult. However, I said that they were looking like men, and apparently too often a surrounding of a MTF with very male features, thinks so too, given the harrasments that male looking MTF's are exposed to when in the open.

  /quote]I'm really taken aback at your attitude.   My personal preference is that I don't like a look of unnatural plastic surgery on anyone.   I think Bruce Jenner,   Madonna and Calpernia all look overly PSed and it doesn't look attractive to me.  None of it has anything to do with being transgender or not.
[/quote]

Well, if going by your own reasoning, that it is every persons choise, then it must also be considered disrespectful to judge those persons that have chosen to dramatically alter their looks, in the way that you judge them.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on February 09, 2012, 11:44:15 AM
Warning!

Knock off the "personal" comments, everyone.

This is a thread about passing, keep it at that.

Sorry, I did not see this post until I had replied.
I will stop replying now.

The most disturbing part of this latest debate to me is someone using another members picture to make a point, admitting they don't even remember the persons name so obviously didn't get approval to use the pictures in such a way.

Now maybe she would be ok with it, maybe it's not against the rules, but the fact that it has happened without much care for the person in the pics, even with pronouns used, makes me wonder if I should ever consider posting once I get up the nerve to do so. I know I wouldn't want my personal pictures spread farther than where I myself post them.

The way I see it just because someone posts a pic of themselves on the board that doesn't give others free license to use it whenever they feel like it. As I said though I could be off base here, not sure how the mod's feel on the topic.

And this is not meant as an attack on anyone, just a concern I feel needs to be voiced.